To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3476199/Transgender-woman-25-jailed-eight-years-raping-15-year-old-girl-changed-sex-male-female.html

It's cases like this which put many people in doubt.

toastdemon the key there being on the Internet rather than what actually happens in real life

Having a penis doesn't mean it is going to be used for anything other than urinating. Just because some men assault women, it doesn't mean that penis = threat.

Agree.

the key there being on the Internet rather than what actually happens in real life

Do real people not talk about things online then?

Am I not real? Is anybody on this thread real?

Why should I have to question anybody? If the law was clear that sex segregated spaces were available for women, most men would abide by the law. It would be up to the police and service providers to detect those who broke the law, not the public. I think they would do that based on known offenders and patterns of suspicious behaviour.

But that wouldn't detract trans men from using the female toilets, that would detract known offenders and people who acted suspiciously using the female toilets (in this situation)

Men who identify as women obviously feel they have the right to use the ladies so wouldn't be acting suspiciously and I feel the police probably wouldn't be giving trans men a crimanal record for using the ladies for fear of being seen as intolerant.

I just don't know a- who would would police this and where would the money for this come from and b - it wouldn't stop trans who genuinely looked like women using the toilet as no one would know anyway!

I also didn't mean you would all kick off, I just meant if that did happen it would be terrible if it turned out to be an actual woman!

I come across trans women and men every day at work and a lot of MtT don't use their penises and want rid of it.

Once again nobody has said that penis automatically = threat.

FFS why can't people read.

The problem is not with a few harmless, reasonably well-passing M2T using the women's loos.

The problem is that if anyone can decide their own gender, regardless of biological reality, and nobody has the right to challenge that self-identification, then no woman has the right to object to any male person in her space making her feel uncomfortable.

So try this scenario: your nervous 16yo requires a pelvic exam, and requests to be seen by a female clinician. The nurse assigned to her is clearly male-bodied, but says 'my gender is female'. Your 16yo is expected to ignore her discomfort, and deal with the fact that the person performing her intimate examination has a penis, despite her stated request.

All the people calling transphobia - seriuosly? You would be totally fine with this? Because the above scenario has actually happened to someone I know personally, albeit she wasn't (mercifully) a 16yo, but an adult woman with sufficient confidence to walk away from the situation.

avirgin There you go, sarcasm always wins.

I'm all for toilets being unisex. Once you are in a cubicle who cares.

If anyone has any doubts as to the motivations of some trans women, spend a few days reading prominent trans forums on sites such as reddit.

Every day there are posts from people who violate their spouses and female family members by wearing their clothes and using other intimate items for sexual pleasure when alone in the house. There are people who become aroused when they are addressed with female pronouns, who become aroused when trying on female clothing in public, who think that being a woman is a collection of offensive stereotypes, who admit that they are so jealous of 'cis' women they want to hurt them. They call trans women who aren't motivated by fetish 'truscum'.

These are the people who are pushing the trans activist movement for legal access to female spaces, not the people who have been quietly going about their business for years without issue.

I don't understand what you mean Rosegold.

Are you confusing transmen and trans women.

If It were illegal for adults to use sex segregated facilities of the opposite sex, then the vast majority of people would abide by that law.

People determined to break it would develop a pattern of suspicious behaviour which would be investigated by service providers and the police.

It doesn't matter what people feel they have a right to do; what matters is if they actually have that right.

Having a penis doesn't mean it is going to be used for anything other than urinating. Just because some men assault women, it doesn't mean that penis = threat

In which case, why can't transwomen use men's toilets?

Surely if men were pretending to be trans in order to hide in toilets and sexually assault women, then the issue is with rapists and not genuine trans women?

Is that what really happens, is it a thing now?

In which case, why can't transwomen use men's toilets?

Good point.

Ok. Cut your dick off and then pop into the ladies.

Surely if men were pretending to be trans in order to hide in toilets and sexually assault women, then the issue is with rapists and not genuine trans women?

Um, yes. That's the point.

Genuine trans women and rapist are not mutually exclusive categories.

Almond - yes I probably am confusing the two, without meaning offence it boggles my brain a bit. I mean men transitioning into women to be clear :)

I just think if a man identifies as a woman they won't be acting suspiciously, hanging around outside in a should I shouldn't self argument, they will just walk in like they belong there, rightly or wrongly and probably 99% of the time not raise any suspicion.

And I don't understand who would police every toilet in the country. And how would your prosecute it? Who would pay for all the detective work of seeing a trans use a toilet in a supermarket (for example) and then follow said person to find out where they live and who they are to even be able to punish?

Yes in a perfect world people would abide by the law but this country is so obsessed with seeming tolerant that I truly don't believe this would ever get anywhere. That is the reason we have parents being taken to court by charities as they feel that parent is not allowing an 'apparent 7 year old transgender' to fully express themselves etc. I don't know I'm tired, I only wanted to ask how people know there is a transgender in the toilet next to them as quite often they look more female than I do!

TheUnworthy, I wasn't suggesting we have unisex toilets, I was merely stating they were mainly unisex in Sweden. I think it would be interesting to look at the statistics of attacks in their toilets. They have been in Scandanavia since at least the early 70's so I expect they have quite good data!

A lot of trans women do use the men's toilets. But why should those who feel vulnerable to prejudice or feel threatened be forced to?

So why make it an issue about trans women? A rapist is a rapist, they could be themselves and be hiding in the women's toilets. Banning transwomen from there isn't going to stop that happening.

Because they are male.
Hth

On the other hand, a transwoman being forced to use a male toilet is genuinely at a high risk of being attacked.

Where are the reports?

It's a bit like the 'transgender people are at a very high risk of suicide because you aren't giving in on everything' I've seen bandied about in these threads.

When their suicide rate is no different to the rest of the populations?