To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

mid

I need to sleep now. I'm sleeping in my pants, as is DH (who is already snoring!)

YeOldMa but if you open up the women's toilets to anyone that only identifies as the opposite sex (no hormones, no gendered clothing etc) then those neanderthals who are happy to make their lives hell will be following them on to the ladies

What's to stop them. We won't be able to challenge them.

Drunken Dave and Barry from down the pub can just pop in for a laugh, maybe they are harmless. How many won't be?

itsall firstly: pretty invasive question, secondly: no, generally in sex with a trans woman theres no penetration also because they don't want to use their penis... Because they don't want to have one.... So They don't want to use it.

I officially despair, no wonder transgender feel so feckin miserable and unwanted - oh yes I am hip and accept them (unless its in my toilet space)

If TW don't feel safe using the men's loos, perhaps they might like to try taking it up with their own sex rather than trying to encroach on female spaces.

If it's transphobic to say a human with a penis is not a woman, then I'm transphobic.

I'll change my mind when I see one transwoman give me an explanation of how they know they are a woman without resorting to gender stereotypes.

I'm just waiting for someone to suggest either that all transpeople use the disabled toilet, or that people who have a problem sharing should use the disabled toilet. Then I will shout bingo!

None of you watching the painful reality on ch 4 now?

Just wondering about trans men? Are they allowed in male toilets if they still have their vagina and ovaries?

Eve

The (Muslim) woman.

Women always has to forfeit their rights to accommodate the expectations of (biological) men.

I honestly don't know how you would know they had a penis. Some women look remarkably like men and some trans look like women (look at the Thai lady boys!)

That is what I don't understand, and what if you kick off and it is a genuine woman! How absolutely awful that would be!

I did ask why these debates are always based around trans women and their needs but didn't get an answer.

Funny how all the focus seems to be on those who were born male and are biologically male.

Not many people seem to be protesting for the rights of trans men...know the ones who are biologically female. Very interesting.

to suggest that a woman has never looked at another woman in a changing room in that way is fairly ridiculous

Sexual assaults by lesbians on strangers are vanishingly rare. Sexual assaults by people with penises on strangers are extremely common. So most women aren't particularly bothered by the idea of being "looked at that way" by a lesbian, because lesbians are extremely unlikely to represent a threat to their safety.

Then of course, people love to blame women for their own assault. So if you don't report Dave as you assume he must feel like a woman, when really he's just a predator, just imagine the blaming that would go on there... "well he obviously wasn't a woman, she should have done something, it's her own fault..."
(Very clear note - I am talking about male sexual predators, not regular common or garden transwomen)

If a trans man who still had a vagina was sexually assaulted whilst using the mens toilets what do you think the reaction would be?

Somehow I doubt it would be one of support and supporting their right to be there. I'm willing to bet the reaction would be more along the lines of what did she expect,. she shouldn't have been in there, etc.

no, generally in sex with a trans woman theres no penetration also because they don't want to use their penis... Because they don't want to have one.... So They don't want to use it

That is emphatically not the case. Plenty of MtT retain, and use, their penis.

Some MtT also state that because they are women then lesbians should be happy to have sex with them - those who don't are branded transphobic.

I was interested in your take on that.

And I apologise, that question I originally asked was way too invasive and personal, and I should have asked your opinion more circumspectly.

And Dave probably wouldn't be convicted, he could easily say he thought she consented. If she hadn't consented, she would have complained about him being there...

Okay, I haven't RTFT - I've got to page 16, can't catch up and am about to go to bed but:

1. I have no problem with post-op trans people using the women's lavs. None. At.All.
2. I don't really have a problem with a MtF using the women's lavs provided said person looked like a woman and was clearly serious about transitioning.
3. I have a massive problem with men with stubble/actual beards/dodgy morals deciding they can say, 'Oh, yes, I'm a woman, me' and use a female space. And if all it takes to count as as MtF is to say that's how you feel, there is no way of ejecting that man from the women's lavs.
4. Beyond that, of course, I'm worried about the loss of female spaces etc that other posters have commented on. At the moment, it looks like the usual: women's rights come right down at the bottom of the heap.

There is clearly a difficulty in balancing women's rights with trans rights, but I resent people slinging around the term 'transphobe' when people stand up for women.

I don't know why we can't just have large, unisex toilet cubicles. They could be large enough to allow hand-washing facilities inside them and baby-changing/disabled access.
Pretty sure they'd take up the same amount of floor space overall and it then wouldn't matter what genitalia people using them had.

If I'm in a public toilet, I don't care. I am there to pee.

Having a penis doesn't mean it is going to be used for anything other than urinating. Just because some men assault women, it doesn't mean that penis = threat.

avirgin Well, no decent person would ever ever blame him for his assault. But the awful section of society who blame women for their own assaults... Can't count for them.

RoseGoldHippie I wouldn't kick off at anyone, if I was really uncomfortable because someone who was obviously likely to be physically male was there I'd probably just leave.

'I honestly don't know how you would know they had a penis. Some women look remarkably like men and some trans look like women (look at the Thai lady boys!)

That is what I don't understand, and what if you kick off and it is a genuine woman! How absolutely awful that would be!'

Why should I have to question anybody? If the law was clear that sex segregated spaces were available for women, most men would abide by the law. It would be up to the police and service providers to detect those who broke the law, not the public. I think they would do that based on known offenders and patterns of suspicious behaviour.

did ask why these debates are always based around trans women and their needs but didn't get an answer

My view, depending on which debate you mean

Women discuss MtT more as they are a threat to women in a way FtT aren't (see male violence etc)

MtT tend to be much more vocal and visible in transactivism due to male socialisation, and male privilege.

MarklahMarklah but those of us who have already been assaulted may not be comfortable. The perception of risk may be distorted, but the fear and distress is real.

Anyone who thinks that transwomen don't mostly retain, use and enjoy their penises is hopelessly naive and hasn't spent enough time on certain parts of the internet.
Try googling "ladypeen". And "cotton ceiling".