To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

You know, one thing at least about MN (and I've been around under various names for a while) is that before I came here I never understood why me (cis female) and my girlfriend (trans female) got attacked by five women one night - things thrown, punches, kickings etc. I never got it.

I now think I absolutely understand that mindset. It's been painful but very illuminating.

avirginlitthecandle how much interaction do you normally have with other people in the bathroom when you go in to use it?? Why are you so concerned that because this person was born another gender that you're all of a sudden going to have to interact with this person?

letsghostsdance I'm not sure which of my statements you are referring to, can you clarify?

OlennasWimple I've seen this mentioned on a previous thread too. I am immensely grateful to MNHQ for not caving to the "education" and for allowing women to have the space to speak about this.

If rape crisis centres decide that they don't want to have trans women working for them does that make them trans phobic? If not, why not?

According to everyone shouting " you're just transphobic!" trans women are women too so using their logic trans women have every right to be working in a rape crisis centre with vulnerable women who have been victims of rape.

There isn't really any consistency here is there?

I am not afraid of transwomen, and personally, don't care if they use the same facilities as I do. I've used mens on many occasions when the queue for the ladies has been ridiculous (theatre interval anyone?).

I think what makes me uncomfortable, without getting all won't somebody think of the children, is the fact there will be small children and minors.

I have two DD's. They are still young, but at that point where they are capable of of using the toilet by themselves, and on that cusp of independence when they don't want or need me accompanying them.

Currently, I know there will be women only in the toilet. So I can send them in a cafe loo without having to pack up everything and go with them.

However, if transwomen were allowed in, I'd not be happy. I don't want my prepubescent girls catching a flash of penis as they wee (because that, in any other environment would be a sex crime), or conscious as developing females that there are biological males close by while they perform bodily tasks.

Even as a teen, I remember going with friends and discussing the intricacies of our newly acquired periods. Wouldn't have done that unless we knew it was women only.

So that is my main reason for being against it.

Notwhatiexpected has it bang on. Not just about the toilets. About how people with penises can self identify as women and change the definition of female. How we cant do anything because of their identity. How it reinforces gender roles and may influence vulnerable people to pursue the same life as that. More to it than the toilets. Much more.

bravedancing hope that neither of you have experienced anything like that since or ever will again. Be happy together. Ignore these people. Common sense will come around one day.

I am assuming that this thread has many many deleted posts and now looks like swiss chesse due to all the transphobic comments

Am i right...i am afraid to look

itsallgoingtobefine that people don't pass

Why are you so concerned that because this person was born another gender that you're all of a sudden going to have to interact with this person?

Um, I'm not.

What I do want to know is where we draw the line? Toilets is one thing but what next?

Open plan changing rooms?
Prisons?
Rape crisis centres?
Women's shelters?

At one point do we stop being trans phobic when we draw the line under it and say "trans women have no right being here"?

reallyanotherone trans women are already "allowed" to use the women's bathrooms. Shock horror, you've probably already been in a bathroom with one at some point! And you're still alive! And how on earth would your daughters see a flash of penis when they should all be in cubicles?

At one point do we stop being trans phobic when we draw the line under
it and say "trans women have no right being here"?

How about after the toilets and before the open plan changing rooms?

There's a broader principal in that women should be entitled to their own spaces and privacy. A compromise was suggested some years ago (the Brennan/Hungerford 2011 letter whereby the TW was undertaking a supervised transition) but this was deemed unacceptable by the trans lobby.

I love the assumption that those of us with concerns have never met anyone trans.

Know plenty thanks. Have been campaigning for LGBT rights for decades

I also campaign for women's rights and this is a women's rights issue

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/transgender-activist-dana-rivers-arrested-for-brutal-murder-of-lesbian-couple-and-their-son/

MTT have the same rate of violence of non trans males.

See horrific report in the link above , strangely not picked up by T news groups.

While permitting transwomen in the loos is open to abuse, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, given the genuine transwomen out there who could would hugely benefit. Everything in life is open to abuse from arseholes, doesn't mean we should be afraid to change because of them. We just need to be as careful and measured as possible.

And I don't see any issue with differentiating genuine transwomen from cis men being wankers. Their psychological history, previous treatment, 10 minute interview with a professional.

So I can send them in a cafe loo without having to pack up everything
and go with them.

So how do you know there are no men in the loo? Who is checking who has got a penis and who hasn't?

Again, please can one of the (many) posters banging on about how "people with penises" or "penis owners" shouldn't be allowed in womens spaces clarify, does that mean that you would be fine with post-operative Trans women (no longer "penis owners") accessing womens toilets?

How do we know they are transverse and not some pervert claiming to be and just to get his rocks if by getting into woman's toilets?

Million and one reason why they should not be allowed in a female environment.

Female *only

ouriana I'm sorry but your comment does not make sense. She is entitled to live as a woman but not access female toilets? So she's not really living her life as a woman.

The reason these threads come across as transphobic is because a large portion of the commenters continously misgender the indidivudal and most of the time the comments boarder on hysterical.

avirgin well where should these women go when they need support? They are generally enormously vulnerable and more likely to be without a family structure for support. I'm not talking about these people that everyone claims are everywhere, the people claiming to be the other gender to get access to women's spaces (hormone treatment seems a lot of effort to go to to get in to a changing room but whatever), I mean the gender dysphoric, trans people... Including people who've had top or bottom surgery or both

itsallgoingtobefine that people don't pass

Ah OK, I just wanted to check before I answered the wrong point

This is my opinion, not fact. (Though I would be interested in knowing if there have been any studies done?)

I personally know two MtT and they are obviously male. I occasionally see men dressed as women around (I don't know if they are trans or broadening what it means to be male). Some MtT photographs on the internet come pretty close to passing, but I'm pretty sure would pass far less readily in video or RL. (And far less again if they were naked)

As a species we are programmed to recognise the opposite sex, so we can procreate. It's not the penis and the breasts. It's the narrow pelvis, the big hands, the jawline, pretty much everything is subtly different physically between a male and female, and we can spot that.

what the hateful anti-transgender brigade on mn fail to see is that they can't have it both ways. it's all about men raping women in toilets and how penises are inherently violent and the minute since Leone says hang on, that's clearly rubbish it's all ACTUALLY REALLY I AM TRYING TO SAVE THE WORLD ON BEHALF OF WOMEN THANK YOU.

brilliant.