To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Kindly post the evidence itsall, rather than twist my position and put words in my mouth.

I have never said that MtT attack women in bathrooms. I have said that they pose as much danger to women as men do, which is correct. If you are happy with MtT in female spaces, as they commit crime at the same rate, it follows that you also have no issue with males in general in female spaces.

For what it's worth, I believe in people's right to identify as either gender, regardless of sex. And I don't believe that the presence of a penis is the be all and end all of the matter.

This I completely agree with. To paraphrase you slightly, the absence of a penis does not = female. However sex does not equal gender. Sex segregated spaces are not about gender identity they are about what sex a person is.

Those saying why aren't men's toilets safe for trans women... Are you actually for real...? A basic Google will give you an idea of the extent of violence (including sexual violence) and hate crimes experienced by trans women. Just like cis women, this is mostly at the hands of men. Violence against trans women is misogyny too y'know.

Honestly aghast at the level of transphobia going on here.

'Maybe all the transphobic people in here should get out there and meet the people they're so afraid of. Love not hate."

Maybe all the posters on here who are so unable to understand why women do not want penises in their space should get out there and meet some women who have been abused and raped and who are afraid of men and feel utterly threatened by the presence of penis in a women only space.

There was a poster on here who said that she could not even cope if there was a male cleaner in the toilet she was in.

Is she hysterical? Transphobic? Are all the women who do not feel safe in the presence of a penis, often because of the awful experiences they have had, hateful bigots?

Or maybe you are just lacking in respect for women and their hard won, still needed rights.

There's a word for that. It begins with M and ends in T and has ISOGYNIS in the middle.

Why is a bathroom different to a prison Toffee?

I'm not Toffee but do you really have to ask this? Most people spend a lot less time in a bathroom than in prison! Plus, as I pointed out earlier and
which nobody seems to address is Who exactly is policing this women-only toilet? It is totally impractical to say only female-born women are allowed in! Who exactly is going to check?

To answer the original question:

Because it isn't about using the toilet, the appropriate toilet use is a very minor point in a bigger debate, but pushed to the top of the agenda to make women look and feel unreasonable.

It is about women's wishes being marginalised, it is about our role as a "female" being made a stereotype to be appropriated. It is about pushing us further down the food chain.

It is about a homophobic reaction to difference, if you don't fit in the societal norms of gender, then there is something wrong with you that can be corrected.

It is about people who abuse the tolerance of others, the criminals who wind up in women's prisons because their penis is "female". It is about positioning women into accepting the dominance of male voices.

The toilet thing is for many a unwillingness to participate, either wittingly or not, in what looks like, sometimes to be, a sexually motivated game.

Trans is an umbrella term which encompasses a huge range of difference. From intersex people whose sex is undetermined, to variant degrees of the unhappy man or woman who feels they would be happier with a different persona, right through the other end, the weekend masoginistic transvestite who is dressing up for kicks.

It is not one thing. And it is kinda offensive to lump it all together and try and legislate on it.

I want cubicals (nice ones which flush) for all, for everyone to be able to wear/live/be who ever they want, and that there is nothing wrong with being different.
X

That's great Chocolate and I appreciate the effort but it's not really helping me with the people who say trans people should go in the ladies for their safety but women shouldn't object because men are not a threat.

It's that logic thing I'm seeking the answer to.
You presumeably think trans people are perfectly safe in the men's as you are unconcerned about a penis in the ladies? Which is logical.
But people keep saying that trans people should be allowed in the ladies for safety sake. Which makes no logical sense.

We've all been in gay bars, it's hardly progressive in 2016.

If women don't want to share sex segregated spaces with men then they shouldn't have to and vice versa. If we're putting how people feel over their biology as a society then a third space needs creating or existing spaces need adapting as we're saying feelings and belief are more important than biology. However the feelings and beliefs of everyone need to be taken into account then if we want fairness.

Show me links to transwomen being assaulted in men's restrooms. Go on.

And I'm aghast at the misogyny tinto.

Please do report any transphobic posts, though.

Here's a hint - transphobia does NOT mean - anyone who disagrees with the transactivist party line of demanding access to women's spaces. Sorry. But ignoring women's rights and fears - that's misogyny.

None of those incidents involve actual transgender women though. They're just cis male arseholes, who unfortunately will always be with us.

And that's half the issue...that any man can self identify as woman and cannot be questioned about his presence,or prohibited to enter a female only space only on his say so.

laurie

First - how do you know they're just "cos men"

Second that's exactly the point!!!

I love it when people say that "mtf never pass". Uuuuhh, ever consider that you never notice the people who don't "pass" (within narrow stereotypes of gender) so you don't get the chance to have that opinion changed

MtT generally don't pass, and it's nothing to do with narrow gender stereotypes, it's to do with the myriad small things that add up to someone's sex.

This is one of the great tragedies, MtT spend so much time trying pass, yet they rarely do.

kua trans isn't newly arrived though? There have been transgender people for a long time. It's just safer to talk about it now. And thank God for that.

itsallgoingtobefine how do you know that though? Have you researched into this?

Hummus, it's very simple. Rapists should be imprisoned. Trans or otherwise.

I haven't RTFT as it's moving so fast that as soon as I read one page another 3 more have been added!

I can only speak from my experience of MTF using female toilets in the clubs I go to/used to go to.

15 years ago I was more than happy to share female toilets with MTF's and never had any bad experiences. In recent years, probably thanks to aggressive transactivists, I've had a few less than pleasant experiences.

On one occasion I went into the loos to find a MTF merrily adjusting their (male) genitals in front of the mirror in plain view of everyone. I politely suggested they might want to do that in a cubicle and got the response "fuck off with your penis envy". For the record I'd have said the same to a woman if they had their skirt up and were adjusting their labia in front of the mirror ... but I've never seen that happening.

On another occasion I went into the loo and there was a MTF screaming "you cis bitches think you're special but actually you're just cunts with cunts" at a couple of girls. Okay so I have no idea what went on beforehand but I doubt it warranted that response. I found it really intimidating, and I'm not easily intimidated.

I'm not saying this is how the majority of MTFs act but unfortunately it's the behaviour and attitude of the few that impacts on the majority.

I no longer want to share female only spaces with bio males as there is a huge sense of entitlement and disrespect from some of them. If that makes me transphobic then feel free to print off the t-shirt and I'll happily wear it.

Because it isn't about using the toilet but actually this thread is about using the toilet! It is not the thin end of the wedge - in fact I think the whole toilet debate detracts from more important issues.

op yanbu but this is one of the issues which mumsnet shows it's arse on

Interesting confirmation from Rrross1ges that MNHQ is being lobbied by transactivists:

Rrross1ges Wed 16-Nov-16 19:54:41
I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies.

Why haven't any of the people accusing us of being trans phobic addressed any of the points I made in my post at 20:09:07? Or answered why a trans woman's right to feel safe trumps my right as a woman to feel safe?

lets

No one has said that trans women never pass

laurie

No one has said that they have links to transwomen spying or indimidating women in ladies toilets. They have links of people identifying as trans

Oh for heavens sake. Fuss over nothing.

In the same way that some guys are threatened by gay guys..yeah they all fancy every other guy, are predators or paedophiles!

Any LGBT person I've ever known is just going to the loo

Nothing to see here

handbagcrab I'm not saying progressive, I am saying that it's clearly a more accepting space than the world in general. To be expected I suppose.

Actually, I've never felt intimidated by a trans person in a bathroom/bar, but I have seen them being assaulted, treated like a freak show and generally man handled when they didn't want to be. Exclusively by cisgender people. So should we ban them from bars then?

No one ever comments on Danielle Muscato on these threads, has anyone else noticed? They just pretend they haven't seen his hairy smug face

OP I agree with you. I can't face these threads often. The other place I think is similar on MN is the refugee threads, such a lack of empathy.
There is going to be a documentary on at 10 on ch 4 about children/ adolescents who feel they are transgender getting help from the tavistock. This is the first in a series about struggling children being treated at the tavistock (only this one is about the gender identity disorder service). I would like to hope this program might generate more compassion on this thread...