Colleague doesn't drink for religious reasons, so we're never allowed to go anywhere that serves alcohol. AIBU to find this irritating?

[AChristmasCactus]

I work with a girl in her early twenties who's muslim.

We are trying to organise a Christmas meal, but we can't go anywhere that has a bar serving alcohol, and we can't have alcohol on the table so none of us can drink.

I feel that she's entitled to her views but to force it on the rest of the group is unnecessary. I'm vegan but wouldn't insist that people eat vegetarian food around me. I don't feel that religion is any different.

At the same time, I'm not exactly a drinker so I don't care as I can go with out. But I think it's the judgemental/controlling aspect that gets on my nerves. AIBU to feel this way?

To all those saying it seems unlikely - I could have written this thread. My colleague won't even enter anywhere alcohol is served so we can't do any team bonding, birthday meals or just after work drinks without feeling like we are excluding her

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:“He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him not sit at a table where liquor is served.”"

Allegedly (in hadith).

Also alleged (in hadith) are Mohammad's support of FGM and his instructions that nothing of a woman should show other than her face and hands. What do you think about those (alleged) instructions by the Prophet?

I am aware that Muslims care for what Mohammad has allegedly said, but all that is no more than a lot of Chinese whispers AND I am also aware that Quran says very clearly that it is "complete, perfect, fully-detailed" and contains all one needs to be a good Muslim.

And in that "complete, perfect, fully-detailed" holy book, there is nothing about a Muslim not being able to sit at a table where others are drinking alcohol.

No doubt you see where I'm going with this.

Sounds ridiculous.
I used to work with a Muslim and they were quite happy to go out for a social event where others were drinking. They didn't drink (well, not all of them) but they didn't request that others didn't.
I used to work with someone who practiced Jainism, and they didn't require everyone else to not drink, though they themselves didn't consume alcohol.

paintroller then someone needs to respectfully explain that these are choices that your colleague is making and therefore is excluding herself.

She's allowed, in law and by her religion, to enter a place where alcohol is served. She chooses not to because she chooses to follow a certain set of tenets, which themselves are an interpretation. Not actually The Law.

That's all there is to it.

The OP is vegan. Same thing. She chooses what to put in her body on the basis of her belief system and moral perspective.

Difference being that few threads start 'my colleague is spoiling a bonding outing by demanding we go to places where no meat is served and anyone consuming dairy has to do it out of my sight.'

See how silly that is? Same thing.

OP - If your colleague feels so strongly about not sitting at a table where people are having alcohol, just seat her at a separate table next to yours.

You are welcome

I'm a long time sober alcoholic and one drink could wreck that. If I started drinking again it would likely kill me.

These days I go to pubs, festivals, parties and alcohol just doesn't bother me. But for the first few years I couldn't go anywhere alcohol was served, for any reason. I just didn't go to things, including office parties, and made sure no one thought it bothered me. My problem, not anyone else's.

OPs colleague is a total PITA and this has nothing to do with her religion. Any tool would do. She's totally inconsistent. She won't go where alcohol is served but she's living away from her family and working unchaperoned with kaffir men.

I would have no truck with this. One person dictating what the rest of the workforce can and can't do? Ridiculous.

Prawn, congratulations on your recovery. I would be happy to accommodate you for those reasons.

I see this woman's belief system as far more optional than your life.

She is still young, is this her first job? Maybe her parents have drummed that into her head and she doesnt have enough life experience to know that there are some 'grey areas' with religion? I dont drink and yes i do feel uncomfortable being around others who are slowly getting really drunk but i just get through the night

This really staggers me we had a Muslim work experience girl over summer and of course being 16 she couldn't drink or enter pubs (unless they said it was ok), she said if she would be an intern eg from 18 with us and was invited to the pub (not that we did this much) then she would come along if she was free but not drink. And she ate I think food with us if ordered in but halal meat or veggie option or fish.

She certainly wouldn't exclude herself on purpose and I think different people interpret their religion eg Muslim in different ways.

All people of all religions interpret their religion differently though.
It's that same with all religions, different denominations (which presumably is a Christian interpretation) branches, orthodox, etc
We do all have to respect one another though, even if we are heathens :)

respect yes, tolerance yes, changing your own beliefs or behaviours to accommodate theirs no.

I think it's been said before but I used to work with a couple of Muslim ladies in their early 20s and invited them to come along with us to various nights which they declined to attend because their families would not allow them to go anywhere where alcohol would be on sale, or anywhere in mixed company where members of the party would be drinking. They didn't do it to be difficult or standoffish but because life would not be good for them at home if they did. It doesn't sound to me as if this girl is insisting you all eat in a particular place. It sounds as though she is giving you a set of circumstances which would allow her to attend

If she's Muslim, why is she even coming on the CHRISTMAS night out? Let alone calling the shots on where you go...

HateMrTumble
For a start, the OP clarified that this isn't their Xmas party and that there'll likely be a separate Xmas do; this meal is actually meant to be a team-building exercise for a sub-team.

Secondly, do you mean to imply that non-Christians shouldn't be attending Xmas parties in any event?

I've been pretty blunt on this thread about my opinion on the difference between being inclusive vs being intolerant on this work related matter.

However, this thread does take a nasty turn with comments like "she doesn't even celebrate Christmas".

I'm an Atheist - I don't celebrate Christmas in the religious sense. How does that make me any different to any person in the UK that opens a present on 25th December who is not a Christian?

I think it depends on the nature of the event to a certain degree. If it's a very small team (say 6) and it's a team-builder, then it's time to think outside the box. If it's an Xmas do that you'd all expect to have anyway then that's different.

I work in a very multi-cultural team and am an atheist myself. IME, my observant Muslim colleagues simply go to the venue and don't drink if it's a 'work do'. They may or may not take the piss out of those of us who overdo it, but that's fair enough.

I even worked beside a young JW woman who as part of her job had to arrange all work sponsored events, including Xmas. She did it with very good grace, but simply chose not to participate and asked (after attempts to rebrand Xmas gifts) that any informal recognition of her role was decoupled from the Xmas period. I thought that was fair enough.

I do however continually try to get my management away from 'booze and chocolates' as the recognition of choice. (As well as bacon or egg rolls at the start of any away day, sigh ) I have a whole bunch of colleagues who simply did not grow up eating these things and have been quite ill in trying. I keep suggesting that a vegan choice would be a step forward when we're catering for 200+ people although a very young colleague who was similarly exercised over the non-inclusive catering did ask me if we couldn't just get some halal bacon for one of the team who is an observant Muslim-

TBH I'd do the non alcoholic place but I couldn't do the halal. I think changing all plans to accommodate her is insane.

I can see why a non-drinker would get frustrated if a drinks "do" involved some kind of package/set deal/all-you-can-drink option where everyone pays a substantial price for the whole deal including alcohol. Because as a non-drinker you end up subsidizing everyone else's alcohol while you drink your (much cheaper) coke and mineral water.

However, if it is cash bar and people are buying their own drinks, then she should not get to dictate the choice of venue. There are plenty of non-alcoholic options in pubs these days.

"I'm an Atheist - I don't celebrate Christmas in the religious sense. How does that make me any different to any person in the UK that opens a present on 25th December who is not a Christian?"

I see your point, but I think most people feel that if one is strict enough to say NO ALCOHOL ANYWHERE NEAR ME AT ALL! then it's a bit odd to celebrate Christmas.

It would be a bit like, if an atheist was so hard-core that they refused to let their child eat an easter egg at Easter, but then was happy to attend an Xmas party at work. Hypocritical.

FWIW, most Muslims in the UK would just have soft drinks and a vegetarian option in this kind of scenario. I think this particular lady is trying to be a pain in the bum.

No one can be that deluded/self important.

Lol which forum have you been reading? There are huge threads in Classics devoted to refuting that exact statement!

I drink but I do see alcohol and the drink industry for what it is. I do think it's sad that soooo many of our social events, celebrations, festivals etc have to involve alcohol for many of us to consider it a good night out. I do include myself in that.

I've attended Muslim weddings and celebrations where obviously no-one is drinking alcohol and there's loads of laughter and talking and dancing and people enjoying themselves.

She might not see it as a big deal to ask to go somewhere without alcohol because it shouldn't be a big deal. But so many of us are aghast at the thought of a celebration without having a few. That's a whole other thread though I suppose but this thread has made me think.

It's the logistics as much as anything though, Thisjustinno.

The rest of the team might accept not drinking, but how do you even find a restaurant without a bar & without a BYOB option?

As for insisting on somewhere halal - how do the vegetarians/Jewish members of your office feel about that?!

What about Sikh members of staff who can't eat halal/kosher meat?

I think you need to point out to her that vegetarian food is mostly halal and all vegan food is.

That you cannot create a president because you do not know who you will employ in the future and their food needs may be contrary to hers.

The alcohol at Xmas is very much part of culture and for many Christians taking wine at communion is part of their worship.

I'm guessing this is quite a young woman. She may not have thought about other people having different dietary needs. I've shocked some people by telling them that many religions fast and that fasting has different definitions according to faith.

Could you do an activity followed by a meal? Something like rock climbing or laser quest then people can either do both or leave after the activity?

I'm assuming she lives with her parents, it might be an idea to talk to them (and yes I realise it is patronising and infantalising but I have taught some girls who were not allowed to travel on the bus).

If you have never drunk alcohol and your only idea of what it is is either from TV when people get drunk and do funny things maybe the news when it appears that everyone under 30 gets so drunk they are rolling in the street or going through town on a wekend then you can understand her reluctance to be in that environment.