Colleague doesn't drink for religious reasons, so we're never allowed to go anywhere that serves alcohol. AIBU to find this irritating?

[AChristmasCactus]

I work with a girl in her early twenties who's muslim.

We are trying to organise a Christmas meal, but we can't go anywhere that has a bar serving alcohol, and we can't have alcohol on the table so none of us can drink.

I feel that she's entitled to her views but to force it on the rest of the group is unnecessary. I'm vegan but wouldn't insist that people eat vegetarian food around me. I don't feel that religion is any different.

At the same time, I'm not exactly a drinker so I don't care as I can go with out. But I think it's the judgemental/controlling aspect that gets on my nerves. AIBU to feel this way?

EatsShitsAndLeaves A masterful summary, you've won the thread. I agree.

Sorry if I missed it, but does the woman herself have any ideas where to go?

When I worked in East London, with about 50%Muslim workforce, lots of my colleagues didn't go to places which served alcohol. So generally we went to restaurants they recommended, or did other activities. I have to say I discovered some fantastic restaurants in that job. Plus, we were really close as a team.

Those who drank did often go out to pubs and clubs after dinner, some of the Muslim colleagues joined us, some not, but it never created any ill feeling.

Spunky

I agree I should have said 'Some people'. Other than that I don't know what you're getting.

There are some people who eat halal food and then complain when Pizza Express or KFC serve halal chicken.

I know people who object to halal and then I've seen them tucking into halal meat.

Religious freedom means no one coerces you into action or inaction that goes against your beliefs. If you don't like alcohol don't drink it (I don't drink, I'm not religious .)
Religious freedom does NOT give you the right to impose your beliefs on others or force them into action/inaction based on your beliefs.
She has every right not to drink. She has no right to force the rest of the party to go somewhere they wouldn't otherwise.

I'd book somewhere where there are a good selection of foods/drinks on offer - the kind of place where it's as normal to have tea or water as it is to have wine. I assume as it's a work do no one will be getting battered?

Utterly idiotic and self entered of her. When we have social/work dos we tend to avoid the drinking den style places and just go to wherever has a nice atmosphere and a good food selection. No one Muslim or teetotal would be pressured to drink and nonone religious or non drinking would be able to criticise those having a wine with the meal.

Tolerance is NOT bending over backwards to avoid perceived offence.

EatsShitAndLeaves

I think that summary is unfair. Her religion prevents her from dining at a table where alcohol is served. According to her faith, she wouldn't be allowed to attend even if she didn't eat or drink anything herself. This is not someone actively trying to force their dietary requirements onto others, rather it's a side-effect of her not being allowed to attend certain venues.

I don't see how veganism is inferior to religion in the sense of what it means. My view is that religions have historically been powerful institutions that could ensure that anti-blasphemy laws are upheld, and that's the only reason why they hold so much sway.

The real suffering of animals is far more important, to me, than the fact that there might be some bloke sat on a cloud checking whether I'm near alcohol or not. Others disagree. But I don't think it's fair to say my beliefs are less valuable than someone else's.

And yes Eats wins thread

Op you are being disingenuous here. Everyone has been asked for their views on food drink and she has expressed hers. It seems to me that you are quite determined to make an issue out of this. Are you saying that you would be just as prickly if you were "forced",to accomodate someone else?
Surely its common good manners that the one who is restricted (for whatever reason) is accomodated gracefully?
If I was arranging a meal (a team building meal ha ha!!) and I had a vegetarian who genuinely always felt sick and extremely uncomfortable dining with meat eaters, then I wouldnt be arranging the do at a carvery would I?!! Because that would be inconsiderate verging on spiteful and devisive

I think it is a big deal not shaking hands with men at work tbh. It creates an unnecessary distance between men and women in the workplace. Something that we are all working very hard in this society to overcome. Shaking hands is our default sign of introduction and goodwill. These signs do mean something and that's why we still do them.

It may not be the way things are done in other places in the world but it's the way things are done here and since it's also a sign of friendship and welcome I wouldn't appreciate an employee of mine refusing to shake hands with someone.

I grew up in the Salvation Army. They don't drink! I'm still tea total. It's never bothered me that other people drink. I do think there has to be give and take on both sides.

if a grown woman wouldn't be allowed to go to a restaurant that serves alcohol then that's her life to sort. She's an 18 year old adult who has choices and lives in a democracy that supports that choice.

I think it's worth repeating this.

I've lived and worked in Muslim countries for decades.

I worked with many Muslims who would happily come to restaurants where alcohol was served.

I also worked with Muslims who refused to shake my hand or sit next to me.

Some people are intolerant, selfish and ill mannered whatever their religion.

We all have choices; I think people can choose to dictate their tastes or not. If it wasn't religion, I'm sure there'd be some other bullying reason to force everyone to conform.

The only time I've dictated where my team ate was a worker who had an extreme nut allergy and would have died if she'd been exposed.

Nobodg ever died of taking offence.

She's yanking your chain, OP.

The way I see it is, whilst I don't have any religious beliefs, people are entitled to believe whatever they like in the comfort of their own home and in their specific places of worship. However, they don't get to dictate what the rest of society does or decide what happens in the workplace of a mixed group or have any influence in education etc.

However one particular religious group (and it's always the same one), seems to think that everyone else should be bending over backwards to ensure that they are included and considered in every element of society to the exclusion of others but would never do so for other religions. It's actually time that the whole religious crime thing was chucked out of law. The normal laws about not being abusive etc are perfectly fine.

Surely its common good manners that the one who is restricted (for whatever reason) is accomodated gracefully?

She can be accommodated by booking a restaurant that has options besides alcohol and a good choice of vegetarian food that she could eat if the meat isn't halal. Why should her preferences dictate what everyone else can eat an drink?

wow that's crazy!

Is she not mortified. I'd be scarlet if my office had to forego a drink at the christmas meal because of me?! (I'm not muslim)

do you really think the woman could/would sue her employers for not organising halal dinners?

I didn't mention suing at all ahicky. FFS, don't put words in my mouth. I suggested that the other team members may be accepting it for fear of being labelled racists if they don't.

Christ almighty, talk about twisting words.

hop I've made my point clear throughout the thread and others have managed to grasp it. If you've just wandered in to heavily imply that I'm a racist I've no time for you frankly.

Redrocketship - how is that accommodating her? Her religion says that she is not allowed to sit at a table where others people are drinking alcohol.

Racist? I've no idea. Intolerant, unsympathetic, divisive? Probably

dybil I'm not disagreeing that her specific religious stance precludes here going to a location where alcohol/non-halal meat is served (I use the word specific as my experiences would suggest a degree of variance on this issue from the Muslim community re: not consuming vs not being in proximity).

However, as Anatidae stated "Religious freedom means no one coerces you into action or inaction that goes against your beliefs.
Religious freedom does NOT give you the right to impose your beliefs on others or force them into action/inaction based on your beliefs".

Fundamentally anyone has the right to their faith.

However that right cannot extend to claiming inclusivity on their part means that those who do not share those beliefs have to conform to the same practices.

She's saying - I won't go to somewhere where alcohol is served.

Thisjustinno, didn't the OP state upthread:

Girl: It has to be halal obviously, and I can't go anywhere that serves alcohol.

'Obviously' implies she sees it as a given, and 'can't' leaves her team no real option. And when another colleague asked about drinking a beer, it was met with a "only if I can't see it."

Those sorts of comments don't read to me as willing to compromise. So everyone has to compromise to appease her, which kind of defeats the purpose of a team building outing. Because in the spirit of team building, you compromise.

I might be reading it wrong, but to me it reads like the OP's team have been well and truly cornered by someone who won't compromise on the basis of her religion.

"Her religion says that she is not allowed to sit at a table where others people are drinking alcohol."

No, it doesn't.

Her religion says she is not allowed to drink alcohol. Not sit in a table, or in a room, or in a house, or in a city where other people are drinking alcohol.

'At a table where alcohol is served' so presumably just at that table, and not one where there was no alcohol?

Some years ago I had a good friend who was religious and would not eat in a standard restaurant. We compromised by friend buying a takeaway from an establishment that was suitable and eating at my home, using my plates and cutlery which were not strictly speaking acceptable but as close as we could get to it.

Ask her if she would prefer not to go as it is obviously a problem for her.

I do not eat meat but I go out to restaurants where it is served, however I would not go to one of those that specialise in it rather than having a mixed menu, I would stay at home.

Religion should not rule the world, really, it causes too much trouble.

Fundamentally anyone has the right to their faith.

However that right cannot extend to claiming inclusivity on their part means that those who do not share those beliefs have to conform to the same practices.

Worded beautifully.

I think this is complicated by the fact that it's a smaller do with the specific intention of improving team morale. She can choose not to come to the Christmas meal as its a purely social occasion, but it seems like this is a bit different and it could be seen that she would be disadvantaged professionally if she didn't attend. I think it would be better for this occasion to go for a fancy afternoon tea or something similar.

CoteDAzur

I'm no scholar on Islam and would of course defer to those who are, but;

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:“He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him not sit at a table where liquor is served.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhî (2801)]

Taken from en.islamtoday.net/node/688 , which discusses the implications in more detail.