To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

I agree with you op, and also with the Jonathan Pie video. I've always been a leftie, could never in a million years have voted for Trump, and was a remainer. I've been shocked though at how people have begun treating one another recently when someone doesn't agree with their opinion. People really need to start listening to one another instead of throwing insults and presuming they are in the right. Maybe make an effort to truly understand what could drive someone to want to vote for someone like Trump? I think more empathy is needed here, and not only to those who are deemed deserving.
I watched question time last night and it was a joke. Biased beyond belief. No real debate was had at all. People just shouted one another down. It was sad to see.
He irritates me beyond belief, but I also had to agree with what Russell Brand had to say on this matter. He's a bit all over the place at the start of the video, but makes the point well by the end I think.

YABU. You're just basically trying to shut down people who don't agree with you op. You're trying to stifle debate and dissent. As are all the other posters on here whose names regularly pop up on the Brexit and Trump threads.

I watched question time last night and it was a joke. Biased beyond belief. No real debate was had at all. People just shouted one another down. It was sad to see. It was appalling. People shouting misogynist and racist all the time. A very poor panel. Better on Newsnight which featured Ed Milliband discussing this very issue sensibly imo.

To imagine the BBC has in the last decade presented impartial debate, moreless is representative of the country at large is naïve in the extreme.

For someone to agree with left wing policies but be convinced to vote against them on account of "name-calling" seems pretty far fetched to me

I agree Slarti.

I once was chatting to a guy who declared that he was put off feminism because one time, he had met a feminist who he thought went on and on. To me, it meant his commitment to feminism was not all that great(!) to begin with.

I don't think that the racist / sexist insults have come from left campaigns (although certainly that seems to be the debating style of some of their supporters) so I disagree with that OP.

However, I think the problem is that globalisation has brought vast changes to the lifestyles of core voting groups, either through jobs being exported, wages being suppressed by an influx of new labour (either legally or illegally) and industries closing. These are very real issues that I believe could be addressed by socialist solutions such as working condition regulations, a sustainable NMW and, perhaps controversially, protectionist policies such as rewarding companies for keeping blue collar jobs in the country rather than going abroad.

I've not personally heard the left actually addressing these issues at all even though I think the solutions are naturally aligned to Labour's union background. In the UK I've heard Labour politicians state that migrants are net contributors to the economy, which is obviously true but ignores the impact on individuals. Unfortunately this has left a vacuum which has been filled by right wing individuals, happy to capitalise on people's misery and direct their anger towards newcomers as opposed to the companies who are exploiting them to keep wages low.

So whilst on a personal level I will reserve the right to judge individuals who voted for Trump despite his horrible, nasty rhetoric and hideous treatment of anyone who isn't a white man, I still believe the left has some responsibility for not framing the conversation properly.

YABU, I'll bite. If you want to make acomplaint, be specific and post evidence of your claim.

I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

Do that, then post the links. Its a claim I've seen made a lot byt the right but with no evidence to back it up.
Then post what precisely you disliked in the article. Actual phrases and quotes.

I am tired of seeing the right claim they have been insulted, when they have been criticized. There have been some frankly bat shiot claims made on MN recently, including;
'it was actually lefties that attacked a Jewish cemetary because anti Zionism.'
'Lefties dont complain about Muslims do they? (from the same poster who cant make their miond up where they stand on critisism.)'
Throwing bacon at a mosque or painting swastikas in a jewish cenetary isnt bullying because its illegal. (So is hitting your parnter, so is DV bullying or not?) But critisizing other peoples views is, so its actually worse.

I'm honestly sick and tired in trying to engage with people who voted for Brexit and voted for Trump. I've tried to reason and present logical arguments. I've tried to see it from a place that's not just xenophobia or bigotry. But they are all I am met with and answers such as 'I voted that way because of immigration' are the only answers I receive. For my own mental health I'm sorry but I'm sick of pandering to you.

Poor love.

How exhausting to be constantly policing the political choices of a democracy.

Here's a thought. For the sake of your own mental health and, I'm sure, that of those lucky enough to be 'pandered to' by you.

Why not just mind your own business, stop this new obsession with interfering in the right to make a personal political judgement and allow your fellow voter the courtesy of making up their own mind?

Do you 'pander' to people by pointing out the dangers of their diet? Their religious beliefs? Their parenting choices?

Or are you just the Vote Stasi?

What a lovely persuasive post Pretty. Isn't it heartening that we can have such a positive debate without name calling.

PrettyBotanicals
If only the right would just get on with it and not try to force their views on everyone else. There has been a 500% increase in hate crimes post Brexit, and a man has been kicked to death.

People are actually being hurt by the Right and you object to an attempt at discourse.

I never pretended to be on the moral high ground.

Are you defending the idea it's ok to demand everyone votes the way you tell them to 'pander' to the (ahem, name-calling alert) xenophobes and bigots to whom the poster refers?

PrettyBotanicals: "Why not just mind your own business"

Well, why don't you just mind your business and allow people here the courtesy of making up their own minds?

Mind you, if we all followed that, it wouldn't do much for Mumsnet's business model.

I couldn't agree more.

The liberal elite are seeming to be the most vitriolic of all political groups. That's why polls keep getting results wrong because if you admit you have a problem with something eg. Immigration, you are condemned as a disgusting, uneducated, racist bigot. People are being shut down for voicing concerns. I have not heard anywhere near as much hate and personal insults as from the supposed liberals.

Facebook was appalling during the Brexit aftermath with insults and judgments of "I am better than you", and it's happening again now in America. People don't want to be patronised and have their concerns brushed to one side and told "no you can't think that or you're a racist". If someone, in this case Trump, is going to speak for these forgotten masses and say what they are thinking then this is what happens.

Our politicians need to stop with the PR BS and start being honest about the problems we have in this country. The majority of people in the UK voted for Brexit and I don't believe all of those people are ignorant and uneducated racists.

hack fair call

I think this article (ironically on marketing) gets to the truth more than a lot of hand wringing by liberal commentators- really know your audience, heavy on emotion and keep the message simple

www.linkedin.com/pulse/trump-brexit-b2b-marketing-chris-wilson

So someone like Trump can base his entire campaign on insults and name calling, but liberals have to take the moral high ground?
Fuck that.
Some views are ignorent, repulsive and bigoted.

Right wingers are so respectful in their discourse of course. Like the delightful term "libtard". Or those nice thoughtful Daily Mail commentators.

I spent many years of my life in countries where women were not allowed to vote.

The idea of being told what to do with my own vote, by anyone is by far the most repugnant idea of all.

Trumps campaign wasn't based in insult and bigotry - it's success was based in proposed economic policies for small town America - trade barriers, inward investment, restriction on immigration (US jobs for US workers), reduction in corporation tax, maternity leave improvement to encourage more women in industry.

This isn't pantomime. No-one votes for the undisguised baddie. He was attractive to millions of Americans due to offering something they wished to hear.

PrettyBotanicals, are you planning to post that to all the people on political threads across MN this year?

Because you'll be pretty busy, particularly given the volume of threads from the very active Leave campaigners.

Or is that being involved in legitimate political debate and engaging with people one disagrees with?

I must have hallucinated the mockery and the insults then Pan.

That was about the comment describing political discussion as "interfering in the right to make a personal political judgement".

No it was all there, but he won despite all of that stuff. America paid little attention to it.