To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Southallgirl "Nor do you invite 70 hostiles either, who will refuse your delicious food and pee in your flower pots."

Are you going to address this comment you made? You seem to imply all immigrants are hostile and behave badly.

But funding schools is only part of the problem - and perhaps the Government could do more - developable locations need to be identified. For 250,000 extra children that's 500-1,000 schools, not to mention teachers.... and that's excluding significant home grown growth.

It's the readily developable space that's the problem, with this causing the housing crisis too... too much demand, too little scope to build.... whereas parents could afford houses, their children can no longer, yet the EU refused to give one iota as they stuck to their freedom of movement dogma.

I don't have a problem with immigration in principle, and certainly don't have a problem with immigrants - most of whom are decent hard-working people wanting to do the best for their families. My problem is with the EU... it is their intransigence that led to the referendum result and if they want to apportion blame they should look to themselves.

I actually voted 'remain' because I thought on balance remaining in the EU would be better despite all the issues with it. I totally get why people voted 'leave' though for the reasons given, and if the 'liberal left' want to continue castigate those who did as stupid racists, they deserve to drown in a sea of their own self-righteousness!

Southall girl also referred "illegals" upthread too, which is another charming turn of phrase.

My problem is with the EU... it is their intransigence that led to the referendum result and if they want to apportion blame they should look to themselves

I agree, Banana If they had allowed Cameron just that one request, things could hv been differentrethe Ref. Myself, I am a daughter of stateless refugees from many years back and I was most disappointed that there were so few Syrian & Iraqi amongst those that walked to Germany and Austria. A friend of mine, an Iraqi immigrant from 25 yrs ago, tells me it is because the majority of Syrians got out quite early. Some went to neighbouring countries but those with family in the West flew to Canada and USA.

Southallgirl Are these Syrians and Iraqis the "hostiles" and "illegals" who are peeing in our flowerpots?

For 250,000 extra children that's 500-1,000 schools

That implies they all require new schools, which is clearly not the case. An extra pupil in a class doesn't require a new school to be built.

yet no evidence is ever brought forth for these statements. It's just a feeling people have

? But its all out there now, we know all about Blair and Brown etc.

At the risk of repeating myself we are talking about 1 extra child in a class of 30. We are letting the government off lightly if we make excuses for them. An increasing population, whether through immigration or not, isn't a surprise to anyone. The government knows it's happening and it's their job to plan for it. The government has the resources to deal with it (thanks in part to immigrants) but have chosen not to

"The Office for National Statistics uses methodology to determine migration numbers that simply is not fit for purpose.The International Passenger Survey is conducted at a handful of ports of entry and samples only 0.2% of what is believed to be all passengers arriving in the UK. (250,000 people).

"Of these 250,000 interviews only 3,100 were identified as migrants in 2003 (1.2%). The numbers are then apportioned to local authority level using formula based analysis. The room for error is enormous.

"The ONS estimates only 300 net international migrants came to Slough in 2004. National Insurance numbers issued in Slough for the 18 month period between 1 April 2004 and 30 September 2005, broken down by nationality show that of the 9,048 new national insurance numbers issued in Slough over an 18 month period to October 2005 only 150 (1.7%) were for British citizens. By contrast, over 41% were received from Polish and Dutch (Somalian) nationals.

""Shortcomings in measuring migration, for instance, led to difficulties in getting robust results from the 2001 Census, the main source for allocating over £100 billion to local authorities and the NHS each year

The ONS has recently published "improved" migration estimates using the Labour Force Survey to supplement the IPS. However, this is another flawed data set as it misses many migrants. It does not survey communal properties such as hostels and is a small sample size of the local authority areas. The results do not reflect what is happening on the ground.

The Labour Force Survey has been used to distribute migration around the UK. Using the new methodology means that Slough has actually seen a decrease of 800 net international in-migrants since 2002. However, the new figures show that less people are leaving the town making a net growth in total population of 1,100 people since 2002.

The council has evidence of a rapid increase in the numbers of households of multiple occupation (HMOs): Slough's own database now holds in excess of 1,050 records of small HMOs. Officers calculate that it will cost over £400k of new funding to license Slough's HMOs in line with the new Housing Act 2004 requirements.

According to the DCLG projections, Slough will experience the 7th lowest increase in its household population between 2004-29 of any local authority in the country. Slough is the only Unitary Authority in the Country projected to receive a 0% increase in its number of households until 2016. Only five[10] other authorities are in a similar position.

These housing projections show a complete disregard of the reality on the ground of the impacts of migration to places such as Slough. As more "sheds with beds" appear in the town central planning using flawed data suggest the town needs zero extra households. As such the concerns of the council and bids for extra resource have fallen on deaf ears.

Education

During the summer holiday period 2006, 89 secondary aged pupils arrived in Slough from other countries. The Assessment Centre can only cater for a maximum of 8 pupils at a time, although 4-6 provides a more effective teacher: pupil ratio.

888 pupils from non English speaking countries moved onto Slough school rolls over that time. 200 were from Poland, 185 from Pakistan, 104 from Somalia and 91 from India. The remainder were from other African, European or other Asian countries. Two primary schools in Slough have had to take in 60 Somalian and 50 Polish children respectively in just one term.

"From 1 January to April 2007 it is estimated 400 newly arrived Romanian Roma individuals (including children) arrived in Slough. Families shared often overcrowded and sub standard accommodation.
"88 unaccompanied Romanian Roma children between the ages of 10-17 years were presented to Slough children's services requesting support in the same period. A temporary dedicated team had to be set up by Children Services. The Roma team provided support to 52 children. 36 were refused support as they have been assessed as being over the age of 18 or the council located family members in the UK.

"The rapid reaction team cost the council an estimated £250,000. This swift action to deal with an unprecedented and dramatic event was essential in maintaining public trust and managing impacts of a very visible migration pattern.

"The management of this impact should be considered in the financial context of the council. The town's population is still considered by official statistics to be shrinking. The effect of this erroneous population count on the council's funding is severe with an estimated minimum loss of £5-6 million in funding to date. The council has managed through four years of under-funding by driving efficiencies and using balances. It can no longer do this making rapid reaction of this kind unlikely in the future.

"At NVQ level 2 the Pakistani community is some 40% below that of the Indian community and 20% below that of the white community. This results in difficulties accessing jobs even in low skilled sectors, but is exacerbated by a decline in low skilled jobs at the same time as an increase in low skilled EU labour.
"The difficulties this community continues to have with establishing itself in the formal economy means that it operates in the more informal economy tending to be landlords, taxi drivers, fast food catering and undertaking a range of lower paid jobs. Our research and discussions with the local community demonstrates a feeling that some of this community is being displaced by the new incoming Polish community which has higher skills and is prepared to work for lower wages. This comment was recorded in the audit, "I've noticed Asian communities resent Eastern European communities as they are ruining their chances in low skilled jobs."

Sorry its long but its a very interesting snap shot into the problems one council faced with the sudden rise of immigration, the problems this caused in so many ways.

"She has not explained or expanded."

"Are you going to address this comment you made?"

If this is a thread about problem Left attitudes, I spot one problem here during this discussion, - a patronising attitude, and tendency to harangue a poster to reply ... and a tad too eager to be sanctimonious ..

I don't think that's a good attitudinal climate for free thinking and an honest exchange of views.

Winter what is your source?

Southall girl also referred "illegals" upthread too, which is another charming turn of phrase

There are illegals, what the hell is the matter with you? You are a poster from the cologne threads agitating for uncontrolled immigration. getting all prim and correct and talking bollox is still your style. you are a nasty nasty bully, lady.

I'm sure I've read that it's the unpredictability of immigration-based increase in demand for services that is a big part of the problem. With native population demographic information to hand, it's much easier.

Just found this thread. Some interesting posts.

I have worked in housing for nearly two decades. I see the affects that immigration had on housing and benefits. The huge strain that was put on the councilI I work for by trying to accommodate an enormous number of immigrants - e.g. many families new to the country with one parent on minimum wage, several children and stay at home mother being offered a 'prized' 3 bed house.

Those who had been on the housing list for many years stood no chance of being housed by us, as they already had some kind of roof over their heads, and did not qualify as 'homeless'. It was really tough to try to explain why 'newcomers' were housed in preference to local people. Blocks of new build flats would be allocated to homeless people. A high proportion were often immigrants. Again, very hard to explain away to the local people who had watched these built and were desperate to be allocated one.

People aren't stupid. If they live in a community that has dramatically changed as a result of immigration they have every right to feel unsettled and every right to speak about it. The left hurling accusations of racism at them isn't helpful. Shutting down discussion about immigration leads to bubbling resentment.

Southall girl refers to illegal immigrants yes? Well yes, of course there are people living illegally in the UK - those without leave to stay, working in the black economy.

People aren't stupid. If they live in a community that has dramatically changed as a result of immigration they have every right to feel unsettled and every right to speak about it. The left hurling accusations of racism at them isn't helpful.

Precisely...until the "left" recognise how racism has bubbled up and look to understand rather than simply condemn it, politics will remain very divided

Carbonara Thank you for your post which gives an insight into a housing dept. I watched that TV documentary "How to get a council house" some months ago.

The one that I saw was about Hounslow Council - did you by any chance see it? rivetting viewing. It featured a Romanian man plus wife and 3 or 4 children. He had closed up his house in Romania and travelled to England. They knew no one here, had no where to stay or any money; the first night they were put up by a kindly Jamaican pastor in the church house who fed them breakfast and took them to the civic centre.

The housing officer at the council was aghast at what he had done, by making himself intentionally homeless and with young children. He was seen a second time, with a more senior housing officer plus an interpreter, and it was found that because he had gone to the nearest Job Centre on arriving by coach and registered for work he was housed though not in Hounslow, but in Birminham.

Can you tell us how that could be, because I understood you had to have an address before you could register for work thru the Job Centre.

Yes, I did see that, it was a few months ago wasn't it? Do I recall that the applicant had a job at a car wash on a self employed basis? I know the decision to house his family on his second visit to the UK was linked to him having registered for work.

If this is a thread about problem Left attitudes, I spot one problem here during this discussion

Those darn lefties, speaking up when racist remarks are made. Don't they know their place?

If they live in a community that has dramatically changed as a result of immigration they have every right to feel unsettled and every right to speak about it. The left hurling accusations of racism at them isn't helpful. Shutting down discussion about immigration leads to bubbling resentment.

Of course they do, and I don't think anyone has said otherwise. The problem is when actual racist comments are made, if someone challenges them they are accused of hurling insults and shutting down debate. There's been 20 pages of pretty healthy debate, a racist comment was made and lots of people seemed to let that slide. The person who challenged it ends up being the one criticised. We do seem to be living in a time when you are not allowed to challenge racism.

"If this is a thread about problem Left attitudes, I spot one problem here during this discussion, - a patronising attitude, and tendency to harangue a poster to reply ... and a tad too eager to be sanctimonious"

Inkata Southallgirl made a comment that without clarification is racist. Are you happy with that? Are you OK calling immigrants "hostiles". Do these immigrants " pee in your flower pots". Are you OK with that?

I am haranguing and patronising while she is "just" racist. That's right I am the baddy for asking someone to clarify potentially racists posts. Ffs don't stand up to the racist who said racist shit. Asking someone to clarify a post is WAYYYYYYYYY worse than being racist.

Really??? Seriously? In your world asking someone to explain if they were being racist is worse than ACTUALLY BEING RACIST .

An honest exchange of views - yes- that is why I asked her what she meant, and she had not replied. I am the baddy. How!!

And yet Carbonara

'The 2010 Coalition Government published additional statutory guidance for local authorities in December 2013, Providing social housing for local people, the purpose of which is “to assist housing authorities to make full use of the flexibilities within the allocation legislation to better meet the needs of their local residents and their local communities.” Under this guidance local authorities are expected to limit access to their housing stock to those who have lived in the local area for two years.'

(According to Parliament briefings)

It's finding the balance that's so tricky Slarti. As a housing officer I've dealt with neighbour disputes and mediation and walked a tightrope balancing the needs, rights and expectations of my tenants. For example, during Ramadan this year a large number of Muslim children took to playing late at night with a ball, (after they had eaten their evening meal) in the car park outside one of our OAP blocks. It disturbed the residents who complained to me. I spoke to several of the families of children who had been recognised and I was told by several that it was racism because it was Ramadan. Nope, not racism, straight forward noise nuisance and ASB.

No, that wasnt the chap, Carbonara. Hounslow could not house him because a 3 bedroom rental would be £2,000 pm compared to £800 in Birminham. Family given train tickets and sent to Brum, where they entered a nicely appointed, freshly decorated terrace house. He was told that if he had not found work within 5 weeks they may be evicted.

The programme came back, briefly, 6 weeks later and we saw that neither he nor his wife had found work. Children were in school, everyone registered with GP, but no work for the adults. We never saw any further follow-up and I wondered how the family fared.

Carbonara - You have such a difficult job. Commonsense should always win over fake victimhood!

I love Slough! Would be interested if any if you have actually been there. It has historically been a place that immigrants of all types live. I think partially becisco it's closeness to Heathrow and also apart from it being one of the largest reading estates in Europe it is relatively cheap.