To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

If you are really able to see into my head

Isn't that what you did with Polly Toynbee? As I said about 10 pages ago I haven't seen any evidence that "the left" are hurling insults and making unfounded accusations. Instead we have people who are questioning and challenging actual racism but we are told that you know what we really mean. Whether we hurl insults or not we can't win. You've decided what "the left" are up to regardless.

NDT

And if your post isn't "narrow-minded" I don't know what is.

So what you are saying is - if any one on the left chooses to accuse anyone else of racism (based on no direct evidence), then if that person disagrees with that assessment, that proves they are racist.

Great logic. Would you like to start accusing me of wanting to murder all people born on a Wednesday then? If I deny this is the case then it is just

little germ of conscience in the back of their mind saying, "You know, maybe these views you're espousing might be a bit narrow-minded and prejudiced?". They don't like it, it makes them uncomfortable and the only way to deal with the psychological discomfort is to distance themselves from these thoughts and convince themselves that this is not an internal voice but a view being imposed on them externally

and my internal sense of guilt speaking and whilst I don't actually want to murder everyone born on a Wednesday, I do want to murder those born on a Monday between 8 and 10 am.

And so on for any insult, slur or accusation.

Do you believe people like me actually have the right to speak for themselves at all?

I am black my husband is white my children are adopted but all mixed raced we both voted out

And if given the choice go forbid between corbyn and fararge we wouldn't vote

I have no issue with people being here

However you should require health insurance be able to house yourself with out state help and have a job already lined up BEFORE you arrive also if you job is so Low paid you would require family tax them I am afraid it's most likey unskilled and we already have lots of people on welfare would could do those jobs with some encorgaemnet

Wrong we both agreed Southallgirl's post sounded racist.
She has not explained or expanded.
I questioned a point TheFishwife made she asked me to justify it. I did. She has not commented on that point since.

On this thread two points of possible racism neither justified. No hurling of anything from the left yet we are still to blame.

You are correct immigration does need to be discussed but it very quickly slips into racism. I can't speak for anyone else but my big concern is that, as a nation, when immigration is discussed it disintegrates into racism. This is pointed out by the left, and many conservatives as well, and we are the patronising elite.

I can not see how we can move forward.

Slarti

Firstly, I don't think it's the left. I am part of the left. I may have said the left as shorthand, but if so, that is wrong. It is some people on the left and actually this thread has helped clarify for me that the worst of the sterotyping and insulting is not coming from politicians but in fact mostly from journalists and commentators and people on SM, which is hopeful.

Secondly, this is what PT said-

"Most Labour MPs are in Brexit seats, where white supremacism won the day, and now you can hear some of them humbly promising to “listen” to those voices. But when you have listened, what then? Build walls and more deportation camps?"

However many times I read this, I cannot read it any other way than that she is saying that a vote for leave was a vote for white supremacy. Where I live we voted 70% leave. I have never met or come across a white supremacist here.

If this is not what you think PT means, please can you spell out for me how she doesn't mean this? I am genuinely unable to see this interpretation.

WrongTrouser Apologies if I've wound you up a bit, but I think it's worth examining where these objections come from. Time and time again we hear these blanket statements like "the left say all discussion of immigration is racist", "the left says everyone who voted remain is a racist" and yet no evidence is ever brought forth for these statements. It's just a feeling people have.

Well where does that feeling come from if not from the external evidence? Why is it that we just has the most nasty and sneering candidate in living memory elected as US president and the explanation we're being given is that "the left" are too nasty and sneering? It just feels to me that there is some interesting psychology going on here, and I was tempted into speculating what that was.

Maybe I'm wrong. And even if I'm right I'm not claiming that every single person who has criticised the left has those thought processes, just that I suspect it is playing a role for some of the critics.

I really don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else or widen anyone else's ability to think rationally about these issues by calling them a racist based on no evidence, which, politely it may be, is what you are doing NDT

See I didn't accuse you or anyone of being a racist. What I said was that people have a sub-conscious fear that they might be being narrow-minded or prejudiced and are reacting to that. Or maybe it's that they fear being perceived as those things.

Let me be the first to say I agree with NDT this time

Or to put it a less controversial way, if X is complaining that Y is causing them a problem, it could be that Y is the source of the problem, but it could also be that the problem is with X (or both). It's a mistake to thin that everything can be taken purely at face value.

Wrong to give PT credit she research's thoroughly. She spends a lot of time in working class communities talking to people. Yes I know its not the same and she is just visiting but she puts the effort in.

I have listened on this thread some people have made sense and sometimes the debate has started to descend. How far away from vicious racism are we? I would suggest it's just a thin social veneer away.

I don't know if this will help, but I recently read this article from April about the shift in American political demography which examines how the attitude the OP was talking about developed over there, and the consequences of it. It's a long piece but a very interesting read.

NDT Thanks for your reply, and apologies if I went a bit into rant mode there. You do raise some interesting points.

Bitofacow I take your point about how discussion on immigration can descend into racism. I think this is pretty key to the premise of this thread.

I am off to ponder and will reply further later.

Wrong some of me, that bit that is still hopeful, really, really wants you to be right. If we all just listen we can discuss this sensibly.

However, after this week and the vote for intolerance in the US I despair. Scratch the surface and there is a vile mass of racism held at bay by people on all sides dismissing it. But if you open the Pandora's box you can't put it away.

A vote for Brexit was not a racist vote. A vote for Brexit may have been made for sound reasons. A vote for Brexit may also have an unintended consequence of opening this Pandora's box.

It's lazy politics. Schools bursting, NHS under pressure, lack of social housing. Let's blame that 3.6% of the population.

Most aren't blaming the 3.6%... they've done nothing wrong. People are blaming the intransigence of the EU who wouldn't countenance amending their free movement of people's dogma.

And it's not the fact that EU immigrants are net contributors to the economy... which they seem to be, it's the fact investment in the necessary new infrastructure takes a long time... (new schools don't just pop up overnight. New Doctors can't magically be recruited and trained within a couple of years ) and besides, there is a chronic lack of available space.

new schools don't just pop up overnight

But immigration doesn't just happen overnight either.

But immigration doesn't just happen overnight either.

True, but a school will take at least 3-4 years from inception to opening when you factor in land assembly, design, planning and construction, and that assumes money is in place and there is actually a suitable site in th location.... many urban areas don't just have neat school size plots ready to develop than aren't in green belt.

My area has large population increase over the last 10 years. In fact just this week we've had a planning note through the door of another 400 houses.

But there doesn't seem to be anything like the pressure on doctors I've seen in London. This area, has till now, been able to recruit and retain doctors and other health staff. Whether it will continue to do so now we have the Health and Social Care Act 2012 which abolished Primary Care Trusts and Strategic Health Authorities, remains to be seen. IIUC, the Act undermines the ability to "predict and provide".

From another aspect, if enough of our new housing is affordable housing, that will tend towards having enough healthcare workers and other essential workers.

Meanwhile, if Ealing is unable to offer affordable housing there will be fewer lower paid essential staff there. Which is why some London boroughs offer(ed) affordable housing to key workers like teachers.

My area also closed a school (I never did understand why) and now needs to open a replacement one... but can't. Because IIUC recent free-school related legislation is preventing the local authority from doing so. It has to hope "someone" decides to open a school, but has limited powers and has to go through cumbersome processes to achieve the end result.

Just as central government banned local authorities from just building and owning new council houses when they needed new housing.

None of these problems are caused by some "natural maximum carrying capacity" of a given area. They're being caused by crap planning, itself often caused by idealogy creating havoc with what planners know perfectly well needs to be done.

And importantly, these problems WON'T GO AWAY if you ban immigrants.

You can try, but typically you won't get the result you're looking for, because council housing will still be being sold off, the NHS is still in the process of being privatised, and the local authority still can't open schools as age bumps move through or Scousers relocate to eg London.

On the other hand, we don't know what kind of Pandora's Box might have been opened in the EU sooner or later, had the remain vote won. Extremism can be left-wing as well as right-wing, and stealthy as well as out-there obvious. No political group is immune (for example the anti-Trump demonstrations weren't all peaceful), they all have strengths and weaknesses.

Bananabread you're absolutely right that doctors can't be produced overnight.

And I can sit here, reasonably confidently predicting a shortage of qualified doctors in the UK in the next few years.

Even if we have zero immigration. (Maybe especially if we have zero immigration.)

Because I've been reading the threads around the Junior Doctors' strikes and what the new contract will do to working conditions. And predict that people who could have chosen medicine will chose other careers instead.

When anybody says this on the threads, though, there are people who try to make the conversation about the personal moral attributes (supposed greed and laziness) of existing doctors. They refuse to hear a word said about whether they'll be able to get to see a doctor in a few years' time.

And when we reach that point, it'll be convenient for them to blame immigration when they can't get a GP appointment.

True, but a school will take at least 3-4 years from inception to opening when you factor in land assembly, design, planning and construction, and that assumes money is in place and there is actually a suitable site in th location.... many urban areas don't just have neat school size plots ready to develop than aren't in green belt.

At the risk of repeating myself we are talking about 1 extra child in a class of 30. We are letting the government off lightly if we make excuses for them. An increasing population, whether through immigration or not, isn't a surprise to anyone. The government knows it's happening and it's their job to plan for it. The government has the resources to deal with it (thanks in part to immigrants) but have chosen not to.

If we are in the position of needing entire new schools then it suggests the government has been grossly negligent in funding education for quite some time. Take that extra 1 child out of the class and it would still be underfunded.

(I know many areas have long been at the point where it's hard to get a GP appointment - and I literally have the scars to show from that. But I meant people who aren't yet aware there's a problem.)

fact that EU immigrants are net contributors to the economy... which they seem to be

Banana - This may not be so. About 6 months ago on another thread there was a good analysis of EU immigrant contributions with figures. I think she has a background in Economics. Cant find it, but it was along the lines as follows.

Working EU people are in receipt of a percentage of Housing Benefit to offset rent, they pay reduced CTax, receive working tax credits, working pension credits, child benefit (even if the children live overseas with grandparents). The amount of Income Tax taken from EU workers is inconsequential in relation to the above benefits.

some London boroughs offer(ed) affordable housing to key workers like teachers

Yes, my friend's son who works for a private firm that has the estates management contract with some NHS hospitals managed to buy a flat because he works on site and is considered 'key personnel.

That scheme was ripe for exploitation though, because you can apply and prove that you are a key worker, i.e. NHS nurse, but a few months later you switch to working in a private hospital, salary is better and you no longer qualify as being 'key'. We saw the estate agent who handled sales of those flats buy two flats for himself and his sister (not key personnel).

SouthallGirl, IIRC, most UK citizens receive more in benefits, medical care, etc than they pay in income tax in their lifetimes. Especially if they have children.

Only high taxpayers with no children don't (IIRC).

And yet they may make a net contribution to the economy, because the economy is composed of more than income tax and housing benefit.