To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Nor reading trading

The massive influx in immigration where I live over the last 10-ish years has certainly caused problems. As a police officer, I believe I see a side of things that most people never do, and I don't even work in a "bad" area. I have a friend who works in a different area, which has, essentially, become a ghetto. It's rife with crime, the majority of people either don't speak English or don't speak it well, and there's no respect for authority. And no, they're not all Muslims. There tends to be a big problem with Vietnamese people here too.

So yes, I support much tighter immigration laws being put in place, and I do support a moratorium on immigration from particular countries/cultures, at least until we can sort out a way to vet the people coming in properly. It's all well and good for people to say it's racist, and immigration is fine/causes no problems/adds to diversity, but they're not the ones seeing the problems.

slarti

I wonder if you managed to make it through my post it was long but can you see the problems when some one claims schools have had to deal with only 1 extra pupil?

Also the points raise the issues with the counting system in place at the time, it clearly says the ONS is not fit for purpose which is why many poster cringe when they see other posters relying on stats. As this clearly states, the numbers officially arriving were desperately low compared to evidence that thousands more were in fact showing to be present in the area. But the piece acknowledges even those are weak as so many people living in HMOS were not working on the radar so would not need NI.

One must not forget of course this was all around the time of the Credit Crunch, so families were loosing houses, jobs and at the same time, we had thousands of people turning up putting so much extra financial pressure on councils which then translated into shortages elsewhere. Homeless charities were overwhelmed, and any charity big or small were overwhelmed because as illustrated above so many people in dire need of extra help arrived at the same time, then added to by our own population who was going through period of financial crisis.

All of this was denied, not acknowledged, brushed under the carpet, dismissed or of course the way out of kilter STATS were thrown at them.. by the Blair Government, then of Course BROWN. I guess this is why some people feel so angry, they are not racist at all but after living through the above they ask "why" - why did we need this open immigration, this massive influx so quickly that has affected every area of our lives? Why did Slough need to quickly set up hugely expensive Rapid response teams to deal with Romanian children?

Everyone I know who has voted leave WANTS immigration, we love DIVERSITY are well traveled educated people with DH of different nationality, families who represent a rainbow of the world, we want to help refugees we want to take in more Syrians etc, and feel the quote we take is low but what we do not want is un limited - un manageable, un predictable FOM.

Good post Winterisnigh. The calculations are indeed way off the mark and the issue of unlicensed ad hoc HMOs is a massive issue. Small family houses with bunks crammed in every corner which are often slept in as ' hot beds' - it's like something out of an Orwell essay.

I agree, Pluto30, with your last para, though I fear there may be a few on this thread who are dropping in dead faints at your commonsense POV.

Common sense is an essential tool when you are working in a professional capacity isn't it Southall. Common sense and fairness. We have a lot of training around E and D matters. Law breaking and ASB is just that, no matter what your culture, and ignorance of the law is no defence.

If your C&P about not having accurate figures is correct, winter, that's the sort of thing that really annoys me.

I couldn't agree with you more about the importance of having as realistic figures as possible and dealing with the reality of those figures. Not ignoring them and going la-la-la.

It's possible to manage population change, and eg children with EAL, but not by ignoring them.

It's misleading to posit this as confined to the Labour govt, though. The worldwide banking crash happened in 2008, the impacts have been knocking on through ever since, and the Tories have been in since 2010. They've made massive cuts to services, many of which are purely idealogical and don't save money even short-term never mind longterm.

Bedroom tax, slashing of social care funding (knocking on to NHS acute care), slashing of EAL support, Osborne's declaration that Housing Associations would be subject to Right to Buy, expansion of Labour's constant pointless testing for disabled people... And plenty more if one cares to add.

Being realistic has to mean being realistic about the Tories' disinterest in managing change properly, as well as Labour's. (Not particularly a Labour supporter, btw.)

Nope, not racism, straight forward noise nuisance and ASB.

Absolutely. But are we meant to believe the left would disagree with us on this, hurl insults at us and shout us down?

But these areas aren't ghettos because the people populating them are foreign. They're ghettos because of underfunding and neglect. Because wealth isn't being shared as it should.

Why are we (i.e. white/english speaking) more entitled to the earth's resources, to the west's more plentiful land and safer climate. Why?

If we didn't live in a massively unequal society, if the richest few paid more, there would be plenty for the British AND migrant population.

They're not underfunded areas, though. These particular areas are the state's biggest focus, with new housing developments, new schools, new parks etc. where other areas are neglected.

Anyway, even if they were underfunded (which they aren't), how do you explain away the disproportionate rates of violent crime, the total disregard for law enforcement and the courts, the rates of domestic and child abuse, the commercial drug (rarely possession) crimes? These areas are disproportionately represented in all of these areas, and it has nothing to do with neglect from the government.

Don't shatter the comfortable illusions Pluto. I think there's a lot of people who could benefit from shadowing PCs or PS officers for a week or two.

Pluto - I would hazard a guess that some people come from countries that have been lawless for a long time. They inevitably find it difficult to relate to rules. The unrest in Somalia, for example, has produced a lawless country for more than 20 yrs.

Pausing I'm guessing it's not correct, like Shouthall's 'facts' about NHS waiting times and carbonara's 'knowledge' of housing. Councils are supposed to make immigrants wait for a minimum of two years before they can go on a housing waiting list. It's been like this since 2012. I don't think the ONS can be blamed on that one?
I'm treating their experiences as brainwashing attempts anectodes (I asked for sources easier and hot none) and I'll carry on trusting the government's reports, thanks.

Pluto where is that, then?

Fawful - where do you think immigrants live when they come to England?

I'll carry on trusting the government's reports, thanks

South, with their friends that are here already (for a bit until they have enough money for a deposit for a flat/room)? I don't think most migrants come with a family.

Many parts of Western and South Western Sydney, Fawful.

These parts are a dismal hellhole and an absolute nightmare for police to deal with. And it's only getting worse.

You sat there are higher rates of certain crimes. Where are you getting those statistics? Have you personally witnessed this?

This still sounds like racist rhetoric because you are saying they are more likely to commit these crimes, not because of poverty or hardship, but because they are foreign or come from countries you can't understand. Have you been to Somalia for example?

And racist rhetoric often comes disguised under a cloak of 'common sense' or as our friend. But I'm not fooled.

'they inevitably find it hard to relate to rules'

So sweeping a generalisation to such a narrow minded conclusion. Like a giant brush sweeping all the turd into a toxic little cube of barely disguised bigotry.

In the government statistics. The ABS has them all.

And yes, being a police officer, I have witnessed it.

They're not Somali immigrants in these areas, so that's irrelevant. The majority of Somali immigrants to Australia are in a different state. Have you been to Somalia, btw?

Again, as a cop, I can guarantee I've seen more than you have if you're not also a cop. And no, white people and other ethnicities are not exempt from committing crimes, but we're certainly called to a lot less crime scenes involving Chinese or Indian people than we are Lebanese, Irani and Vietnamese people, so there's a disproportionate amount of crime occurring among certain ethnic groups. There's nothing racist about that. It's a fact.

Maybe MNHQ should put a flag or something next to our username. The figures are going to vary from country to country.

Jelly True, but Australia has, on the whole, a lower rate of immigration than the UK, so I'd venture a guess that the problems there would be even more significant in particular areas.

Don't be ridiculous, toomanypetals, you are showing your ignorance. I suggest you educate yourself about recent Modern History. Show some empathy to people, because it is difficult to adjust yourself to a completely different way of life in the West if you come from across the world. Don't be so bitchy about people who come from a hard life.

I live in one of those areas and really, not. Plus we have chavs nd football hooligans. not at all ethnic.