To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Winter, correct me if I'm wrong but it just said "our government". You inserted the word "Tory" and then pretended it was a commendation of Labour.

I seem to find myself constantly pointing out such un truths.

Maybe that's because you are constantly inventing them!

Can you not see the difference between saying any leave voter might be racist and all leave voters are racist?

Oh the irony!

Winter just to confirm - you really believe that the NHS is better funded now than it was under the last Labour government??

This is kind of the rethoric that the op was on about, it's a leading question that will unleash a stream of copied and pasted responses, nhs funding is murky waters, some stats show that the conservatives are at least matching labours funding excluding inflation, alternatively they can be spun that they are cutting funding if we ignore the brick around the kneck of PFI that labour saddled them with, the NHS needs reform it shouldn't be a money pit, but I digress.

Back to topic, you had the left supporting Hillary, with all her very shady dealings, mass media bias, and running on a very, very thin left leaning agenda telling people that they should vote for her solely based on her gender, even on mn there where many comments that framed the argument that if you had issues with HC it was misogyny, it's not just the outright calling out the obvious bigots/racists, it's the framing of the argument that has lost a lot of voters.

Wrong can I answer?

Q1 - No I have never heard anyone say all leave voters are stupid/racist. Undoubtedly some leave voters are. Some remain voters probably are too. Polly Toynbee does not say that. Please quote if someone credible (not a YouTube rent a nutter) has said that.

Q2 - see above

Q3 - Lexit is a well known movement, we both know it exists along with other left wing leave campaigners.

I haven't wrongly accused any of anything, so I have no need to stop.

I didn't mean that as personal 'you', (I cant remember precisely who said what anyway). I meant it more as 'one'. Plenty of people have accused all Leave voters of racism. If one includes swathes of innocent people in one's accusations, one discredits oneself and the accusation, is what I meant.

The whole raison d'etre of this thread was to make sweeping generalisations about the left so forgive me if I don't take your victimhood seriously or your claim to be left wing while simultaneously attacking people just for being left wing.*

I'm not claiming to be a victim. I am saying that it's unacceptable to accuse people of racism /sexism / any other ism simply because you don't agree with them. If your best answer to that is to mock me by implying I have some kind of victim mentality... well, it's certainly not mature debate, is it!

And as for "my claim to be left wing", I'm frankly a little baffled that you'd think anyone would pretend to have political views they don't have. I don't belong to a political party, but I've done a fair bit of campaigning on green issues, on getting more help and support for the poor, on more social housing. But I spend more time actually taking action in those areas and helping practically than I do getting involved in politics, so maybe I don't qualify as being able to claim a political stance by your weird standards.

The hypocrisy is astounding. Absolutely. I'm impressed you have such self-awareness. ;)

I thought most politicians agree that post credit crunch NHS funding has been impacted. We can argue impact and extent, we can blame the reduction on Labour fiscal mismanagement but I don't think we even Tories would claim it is better funded now.

So this sums up the issue. Person A makes a statement. Person B replies with facts and they are patronising, showing off how educated they are.

Person C asks A to clarify and they are being patronising by asking leading questions.
Person D argues with person A and they are patronising.
Unless person A meets unconditional acceptance they are being patronised.

HRC was not an ideal candidate but she is not racist, sexist, disablist. In the 2002 French presidential elections the French had a choice 'the crook or the facist' the French left came out and voted for Chirac - a right wing crook - but he was not a fascist. I kind of hoped the Americans would make the same decision the French did.

No I have never heard anyone say all leave voters are stupid/racist. Undoubtedly some leave vote

Because there is usually a caveat that gained meme status within a day of the vote, before hand is a different scenario and people's perceptions (especially as it's so wide spread should just be dismissed out of hand), I'm sure you have seen the term "side with racists" though and understand the connotations

you had the left supporting Hillary

No, the establishment supported Hillary because they benefit from the status quo. I don't know any ordinary person on the left who didn't see her as anything other than the very marginally lesser of two evils. Personally I'm not totally convinced she's even that, but do carry on with your insulting generalisations.

Can you not see the difference between saying any leave voter might be racist and all leave voters are racist?

"Oh the irony!"

Slarti I don't understand your response. I am posting on this thread in good faith as a socialist because I want to understand what is happening in this country and the world because I am pretty frightened of the way we are heading. I think the division in this country which the referendum has revealed is dreadful and I think if the left can't sort out it's internal divisions, frankly, we're all stuffed. So it would be great to be able to discuss this with others, even if (or possibly particularly if) we don't agree on everything.

Are you saying my question was patronising? If so, I apologise. The sentence I quoted was verbatim and it just seems to me that quite a lot of the to and fro on this thread is people refuting things that other people haven't actually said. So I was trying to clarify the difference between some and all.

Should not*

Wrong I'm saying that you don't seem able to see the difference between saying a leave voter might be racist and they all are! If anyone on the left points out racism it's claimed the entire left is hurling insults against the entire leave vote.

No, the establishment supported Hillary because they benefit from the status quo. I don't know any ordinary person on the left who didn't see her as anything other than the very marginally lesser of two evils. Personally I'm not totally convinced she's even that, but do carry on with your insulting generalisations.

And that's what the vote was against, the left should therefore stand up and listen to what's their fears are instead of calling them stupid or try race baiting by calling it "whitelash", your personal anecdote doesn't really mean anything, it's not hard to see that Hillary was the "lefts" choice, Jessica valanti got paid to rubbish sanders who was the true anti establishment on the left

Bitofacow Thank you for answering my questions. It is helpful because it does show were the difference of opinion at least between me and you on this issue is. It is clearly whether or not anyone on the left is saying all leave voters are racist. (Sorry if this seems to be school of the bleedin obvious, but it could be possible to be disagreeing and it actually be due to a difference of opinion on one of the other two questions).

So I don't know if that gets us anywhere. I read it all the time, on MN, in the comments btl on the Guardian, on Facebook (until I deleted my account because it was on pages of people I know personally). I also see it in the PT article, but you don't. As pp above, sometimes it is done with a bit of subtlety, but then we can argue till the cows come home is it actually there or not, in these cases. I see it and other posters on this thread see it. I will try to have a look tomorrow for some press examples.

See my problem is that I think that letting people get away with racist/sexist behaviour because you want to win them over is just unacceptable. We cannot tolerate prejudiced narratives.

Individuals may think the are sticking two fingers up to the system but they are empowering bigots.

I'm sorry if it hurts their feelings when people point this out but not nearly as sorry as I feel for those who's lives they are happy to ruin to prove a point.

I also think a lot of these voters are actually prejudiced and are feeling very validated right now but still don't want anyone to point out that it is shit behaviour.

The French left voted for a right wing crook rather than a fascist. They realised the issue was not about them. Electing a fascist had wider connotations.
I was, and still am, dismayed that people can't see beyond partisan politics. Electing a racist is just wrong.

I think the division in this country which the referendum has revealed is dreadful

Agreed. I'd felt as if I knew people in two different worlds before the referendum, and wished lots of times that each would hear the other a bit better. Naively, it didn't even occur to me that each doing so would make the division and misunderstanding worse and not better. It's very sad.

and I think if the left can't sort out it's internal divisions, frankly, we're all stuffed

At times I feel very frustrated by this too, although it probably helps that I'm not generally a Labour voter, so it's worry for the country without the additional sadness from being attached to the particular party that's in the biggest mess.

But it also helps that, having become interested in policitics in the 90s, I see it as a phase which parties go through - the Conservative looked finished and incapable of unity, but like most phases, they got through it. Not true of every political party in history, but I think there's a good chance of a centre-left government the election after next.

So I'm long-term optimistic, but share your frustration with the current divisions on the left.

Wrongtrouser we both agree not all Brexit voters are racist. I know lexiters and have friends with Caribbean heritage who voted Brexit.

However, do you agree that a fair number of Brexit voters are racist?

PT certainty says some Brexit voters are racist, but importantly, she doesn't say all of them are. I don't think the truth of this statement can be argued.

If we agree some Brexit voters are racist what do we do?

The left is always split. Do you know how many communist parties there are? Ideological purity before victory. It's a curse.

I just read this, it's obviously from Democratic standpoint.

www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2016/45/talking-to-my-cousin-who-voted-trump

The woman concerned voted Trump and has a Cuban mother and Mexican father and explains her reasoning.

Basically she eould have loved a female president by doesn't trust her, whereas Trump is a well known warts'n'all character.

' The pussy-grabbing comments Trump made were disgusting, but I'm a smart woman, I’ve worked in construction companies and I've heard it all. I know what men say behind closed doors and as long as they don't say them to my face they’ll still keep their teeth. '

She closes by saying, ' in the inner cities it's really hard for a lot of people, especially the black community, but these communities have been run by Democrats for half a century and they have done nothing to help them. I really pray that Donald Trump will help them and I hope he starts there. '

This kind of story has come out multiple times across the uk since the last GE and brexit, the left need to start holding a mirror to themselves before the shots across the bow get a dead on target.

I was, and still am, dismayed that people can't see beyond partisan politics. Electing a racist is just wrong.

Agreed. And I'd have voted for Clinton with the same enthusiasm of those French voters who held their noses.

I'm happy to be corrected on this and didn't follow the US election as closely as European ones, but I can see how Trump could arguably not be a racist (although the sexism is undeniable).

Send back illegal immigrants and build a wall to keep out more. I don't like these policies, but being against illegal immigration and wanting to send back illegal immigrants isn't racist. They are, after all, in the country illegally.

Stop letting Muslims into the country from certain other 'high-risk' countries until we find a way to vet them better. Not nice, but Islam is, after all, a belief. I'd be fine with not letting in any Islamists - in fact, that seems pretty sensible. And it's undeniably hard to know who the Islamists are. It's religious profiling, and I really don't like it, and wouldn't vote for it, but as a short term measure I'm not sure that it's racist.

To clairify, I'm not defending these policies (I strongly oppose them), any more than I'm defending Trump in general. And I can see that racists would like these policies. I'm just not sure that that makes the policies (or the person) racist.

Very happy to hear if there's other things I've missed.

slarti

i dont understand?

Our government is the Tory government no? Or did you mean generic governments its just you then said " passed all the power to the Tory government" as if you were talking about the same government?

If we agree some Brexit voters are racist what do we do?

^ I know some brexit voters are racist, yes without a doubt. Not that I know personally but yes.

What do we think of leaver who have openly degenerated the lazy white uk worker, so useless and crap they have to get good hard workers in from the EU?

Send back illegal immigrants and build a wall to keep out more. I don't like these policies, but being against illegal immigration and wanting to send back illegal immigrants isn't racist. They are, after all, in the country illegally

That meme also negates the fact that Clinton was and has in the past been in favour of a fence, I think the statement of getting Mexico to pay for it is what caused the initial issue, but when you see it in context of a wall v fence you can see the media whipping up a storm and see the nuance in the argument that it's only the "right" that are manipulated by the media

"Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys wearing yarmulkes…" D Trump.

He had called Mexican's rapists on many occasions. He implied a judge with Mexican heritage would be unable to be impartial.

The Trump organisation has faced accusations of racism going back to the 1970s.

Plus all the stuff you pointed out. Plus the stuff I can't be arsed typing.

It is a long and deeply unpleasant list. It is why he is endorsed by the KKK.

Winter clearly we think the example you quote is wrong. Obviously.

But the issue at hand is the rise of racism as a result of Brexit. People feel empowered to act and speak, about and to, minorities in deeply offensive way. These are the people we need to engage with and listen to if I follow your argument correctly.