To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

So Gove made some stupid comment about experts. So all leavers dislike experts and everyone has to pretend to be uneducated. It is a strawman and very tedious.

Whereas a rant by parody broadcaster Jonothan Pie proves everyone on the left is hurling bile. Very tedious indeed eh? This whole thread is one big strawman!

"theres a game of Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer going on here with the Right self identifying as the victims, painting the Left as the persecutor which leaves Trump (!) as the Rescuer."

This is the definition of populism. "There is an elite who benefit from the status quo. I (your saviour) am here to save you (the silent/morally correct majority) from that Elite (Establishment). Govt seems so confusing but I bring you simple solutions you've often thought would work."

Peron (Argentina) & Chavez (Venez) had same msg.

Americans are especially suckers for the narrative of the outsider who is going to "fix" Washington. Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Mr. Smith goes to Washington... Even Bill Clinton was deemed an "outsider". Lyndon Johnson was the last true establishment Prez.

Trade Unions - Hitler didn't like Trade Unions.
Trump doesn't want to expand eastwards but he has mocked disabled people.
Trump is against a women's right to choose and Hitler had clear views about women bearing children.
It is not just one or two carefully chosen facts, people make the comparison because it is valid, unhelpful, but valid.

We are not allowed any pride in our history? Have you seen the history taught in schools, about 80% British history. Schools have to teach 'British values'. All schools have to have a daily act of Christian worship.

No those on the left don't call for other countries to be multicultural because they are 'other countries' and it would be a bit anachronistic for us to tell them how to run their country.

Although there are several campaigns against FGM which is a cultural practice. Many on the left and the usual ' liberal' suspects, teachers, social workers, health visitors are quite clear about how unacceptable this practice is.

Johnson ( Vietnam excepted) was also the last truly liberal president.

Something terrible was always going to happen in Germany.

Let's say for arguments sake Hitler had never been born - would WW2 have been avoided altogether? Would the Germans have carried on meekly submitting to the demands of the UK and France? Or would somewhere, somehow, along the line, there have been a fallout?

It's true that the far right play on a sense of misery, disillusionment and unhappiness, usually amongst those who are poorly educated and have poor life chances. However, when they are emerging in numbers of not just a few unhappy souls in the poorest parts of the country but en masse, it's important for a mainstream political party to actually listen and to act.

We could get into a discussion about the role of individuals in history but to be honest I have forgotten most of my Plekhanov.

The point people are making about Hitler is the on lljkk is making. Most right wing demagogues have similar modus operandi. Simple appeals to the working man are the bread and butter of dictators. " Honest I'm the only one who understands" type appeals are historically the start of many a slippery slope.
There are no simple answers. People who present easy options are lying. People who believe it are fools.

Something terrible was always going to happen in Germany.

Erm, I don't know what you mean.

Are you saying that you think six million Jews were always going to end up in gas chambers? (always the danger with multiculturalism, eh!)

Surely not.

However, if people had understood where events like Kristallnacht were leading, and where the hate-rhetoric was going, then maybe there would have been more opposition to Hitler.

Oh no, maybe not, perhaps they too would have been told to shut up by the "oy don't call us racist" crowd.

Bitofacow - but you can find similarities to Hitler in all sorts of leaders, many of them fawned over by the left. Look at the things Chavez did and said and many of the other leftist leaders in Latin America.

Many people on the UK left call for America, Canada, Australia or Germany etc to be multicultural, I have read and heard it many times. They just don't say it to non-Anglo Saxon countries.

There is a difference between what is officially taught in schools and what is pushed as being socially acceptable opinions. My child has come home this week telling me their teacher has had a long conversation with them about how Trump is dangerous and a racist etc. I am not a Trump fan but I don't want my child being indoctrinated at a young age about what they should think and nobody I know would ever admit to being a Brexit voter or a Trump supporter as it would be completely socially unacceptable and they would be vilified (I do live in London though!).

FGM is looked down upon yes, but what about the gross homophobia and racism in some non-Western cultures? I rarely see or read people on the left openly saying they are going to boycott this country or that country because of their racism or homophobia or their attitude towards minority groups. For example, there is a lot of criticism of Australia's immigration policy yet I have yet to read a piece about Japan's immigration policy or its desire to maintain a homogenous ethnically pure population. Japan is not a poor country, so why do we never read in the Guardian articles decrying Japan's immigration policy and its unwillingness to accept Muslim refugees for example?

Simple appeals to the working man are the bread and butter of dictators.

^^ and corybn?

yes all dictators, stalin, mao etc.

its not good enough to look down on FGM by the way, its still going on like never before and there have been few if no convictions for it. why?

mothertruck3r

"Bitofacow - but you can find similarities to Hitler in all sorts of leaders."

Yes which is why I referenced the comment llljkk made to infer that point.

The teacher discussing issues with pupils "ahhh the horror". The teacher makes a point, you discuss it with your child = education. People have different opinions, your child hears them both. That is a good thing.

FGM is not " looked down on" it is a criminal offence that people activity campaign against. It is clearly labeled abhorrent. This is a major issue in schools. Forced marriage is an issue in schools teachers are trained to look for signs. There is a lot of 'stuff' going on in the real world tackling behaviour that many find culturally unacceptable. It is not however reported in the DM or the Sun perhaps that is why people don't know it is going on.

I know as you do about Japan's cultural hegemony. I have read a number of critical reports recently about Japan in relation to women being forced to change their name when they marry. I read these in The Guardian, don't know if it was in the DM.

winter Corybn couldn't make a simple appeal to his dog!

That stuff is clearly not enough and not working though.

Badknee - "Increased immigration meant competition for jobs and homes and doctor's appointments and school places all got much tougher."

It is very tough. Immigration has had a very serious effect on in- and outpatient appointments. There are finite restrictions, such as: the size of the hospital, the number of consulting rooms available, number of clinics that can be held every week – stuff like that. I live in Greater London, and have recently been an outpatient myself. This is how it is now done to spread the load because of increased population.

You wait approx 3 or 4 months to see a consultant. You see him and he wants you to have a scan or an investigation. Now, you would imagine that would be in the next fortnight or so, wouldn’t you? No, it’s another 3 month wait. You have your investigation and you are requested to see consultant again. You receive an appointment for 3 months after that scan. This is how it goes on.

Treatment is so spread out that one does not feel to be under the care of a doctor. So far it has taken 9 months to see a doctor, have one investigation and then see him again. That’s not medicine, and that’s not how it used to be. But the NHS is forced to spread out a patient’s care in this way to fit us all in. And spreading a patient's treatment in this way NHS is able to cook the waiting list.

A dear friend, who had faith in my judgement and character to make me Godmother to her daughter wrote about Trump and Brexit on FB today, wishing that people would have thought about the implications of their society, and made an effort to understand what it was they were voting for. She's previously called Brexiters stupid.

I changed my mind from Remainer to Leaver after 100/150 hours of reading and research - I don't mean listening to rhetoric or biased sources, I mean reading treaties, academic studies and the like. Even before that, I was up to date on current affairs here and in Europe, and read newspapers in French, German and Spanish as well as English. It irks to be called ill informed, when at least some of those doing so got all of their information from a small number of newspapers with their own biases.

I do volunteer with with refugees - unlike most of those who've implied that I must be racist. Other volunteer work puts me in contact with the poorest people in my region - unlike those who imply that I don't care about the economic impact on the socio-economically disadvantaged.

I'm on a low income (only work short hours due to being a carer for my disabled mother), but was not voting out of anger or protest or bitterness or feelings of being disenfranchised. I'm aware that in many ways I'm one of the "haves" (not compared to friends and family but compared to society's poorest and most vulnerable), and a huge priority for me in choosing how to use my vote, is the long term welfare of the"have-nots".

On Brexit, I was better informed than the average voter, and voted for what I believed to be in the long term interests of the country as a whole. This isn't the place to get into a discussion on reasons, and I completely understand that others could be as well informed and reach a different conclusion...

But I'm getting pretty tired of them telling me, inaccurately and condescendingly, that I voted out of ignorance, stupidity, selfishness, or anger.

No birdy, I'm not saying that "six million Jews were always going to end up in gas chambers."

I am saying that, given the economic and political situation in Germany as the 1920s came to a close, it is unlikely things would have ticked along into the 30s and 40s as they were.

Deliberately twisting my posts and claiming to extrapolate a meaning that wasn't there isn't fair.

South, this report disagrees with you (I'm only halfway through reading it though).
It's from 2015, and is about the effects of immigration on waiting times in the NHS.
https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2015/giuntnicc_silva2015.pdf

Basket very specifically we were looking at Hitler's policies and not the situation in Weimar Germany.

The point being dictators (some on the left, but mainly on the right) when initially elected often have a policies and a story similar to Trump and Farage.
No one knows where it will end but history has taught us that waiting for the train to arrive to take you away is not good.
You need to be clear about what is unacceptable early and by that I mean racism, sexism, disablism, nativism and xenophobia in general.

" I'm getting pretty tired of them telling me, inaccurately and condescendingly, that I voted out of ignorance, stupidity, selfishness, or anger." Elizabeth you clearly made an informed decision but can you honestly claim the majority of Brexit voters did. And are you seriously telling me most Trump voters did?

The two articles used as evidence offer a point of view but they are not hurling bile.

Great post Elizabeth.

Fawful Thanks for the report - I will read it tomorrow and get back to you. I have a senior job in an NHS Trust and it is a fact that all clinics have had to adjust their waiting times, not recently but I recall this item being on the agenda in 2007 - How to deal with an increase of "users".

If a third party were to extrapolate and follow just one patient's progress from 1st consultation to discharge, it would show a different story. It would show that referral-investigation-discharge with a good outcome not requiring surgery would previously have taken approx 3-4 months from start to finish. I certainly remember those days.

I've just looked at the appt letters for me. I waited 4½ months for 1st appointment; 3 months for investigation; another 3 months for most recent appt. That's 10½ months which could have been compressed into much, much less but there is a backlog in x-ray, or CT, MRI, bronchoscopy, etc. The knock-on effect is widespread but it is spread so well that 3 months between hospital appts is now seen as the norm.

Younger patients will not know this, but older ones do.

The racism, hatred and bile spewed in the last 72 hours has been astonishing.

From the so-called tolerant left.

Agreed.

Here are too shocking examples...
order-order.com/2016/11/11/guardian-journalist-tweet-presidential-assassination-call-deletes-account/

Be warned this one is very upsetting and had me in tears. The boy is 8-9 and totally hysterical as his mum tells him to get out.

According to the political compass I'm a Left leaning libertarian. I'm really appalled by the hateful talk and actions on the authoritarian left.

Bit of a cow Elizabeth you clearly made an informed decision but can you honestly claim the majority of Brexit voters did. And are you seriously telling me most Trump voters did?

Haha fair question!

No, I suspect that many leavers made a pretty uninformed decision, based on a campaign of lies and fearmongering, and informed only by the biased articles they read in an small echo chamber of resources, and discussions with others in exactly the same situation.

But I think exactly the same is true of many leavers - pretty uninformed, listened to a fear-mongering campaign, only got info from biased sources, only discussed with those on the same side.

I'd like to hope that the vast majority on both sides voted for what they genuinely thought was best and right, and not out of worse motives.

As it happens, nearly everyone I know socially is a Remainer. They come across as articulate and educated, but most also got their information almost exclusively from the BBC, the Guardian and the Independent. Most had no real idea about the treaties or set up of the EU. Most don't know enough about economics to know what FDI is even.

They may well be completely atypical of Remainers, just as I may well be atypical of Leavers (and certainly I've cringed at some interviews with Leavers). But the truth is that most of us aren't as well informed as we think we are, and 100+ hours of extra research served to remind me how little I actually knew, in spite of feeling well-informed.

As for Trump voters - well, I can't imagine voting for him because of his character, even without my objections to his policies. But I'm aware that most of my favourite news sources are pretty biased and enjoy parading the stupidest Trump voters in front of the camera, and although I felt pretty gutted and worried at his election, I keep trying to remind myself that I don't know the whole story. There are non-idiots who voted for him, and I'd like to hear their reasons. It's never as simple as we think, and the more removed we are, the simpler it looks.

I think it's totally fair to criticise Trump - not least because he has a voice and every opportunity to make his opinions heard and clarify his position. But I think we have to be more careful about understand the views of those who voted for him - the only thing we know for sure is that they thought he'd be a better President than Clinton. I'd haven't held my nose and voted for Clinton, simply to keep Trump out, but I'd hate anyone to assume I thought she'd be a good president :/

Excellent post Elizabeth

to Leaver after 100/150 hours of reading and research - I don't mean listening to rhetoric or biased sources, I mean reading treaties, academic studies and the like. Even before that, I was up to date on current affairs here and in Europe, and read newspapers in French, German and Spanish as well as English. It irks to be called ill informed, when at least some of those doing so got all of their information from a small number of newspapers with their own biases.

I know where you're coming from I did hours upon hours of research right back to who and how the European project was formed. Monnet, Churchill CIA etc
I did not follow what was going in in the so called campaigns, I did my own research which concluded with my voting Leave.

I'm a left leaning libertarian. Vegetarian. Mum and dad were immigrants. I'm a dual national. DH is mixed race. DD is mixed race. I work in public service.

But according to authoritarian left mudslingers I and people like me ARE racist, xenophobic, thick and so on, because our whole existence if of course defined by a vote to leave the authoritarian, antidemocratic EU. Crazy.

wrongtrouser thank you :)
auit Totally sympathise, infuriating isn't it!

Auit I watched the vid of the little boy being kicked out of the house. Big shock for him and mother should not hv done it over candidates. But hardly requiring tears from you, surely.

My mother also packed a bag for me and put me outside when I was about 7 because I was irritating her.