To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Yes, I agree with that Itinary. I also think mothertrucker gave an insightful post.

Otherwise they risk giving the impression that they can't function without the EU overseeing them

very true and maybe they cant see how to function without EU?
Like Boris once said there is a Stockholm syndrome in the UK which other EU nations dont have.

But Itinerary they honestly think that life will be worse outside the EU. It's not that they can't function without the EU overseeing us, but that the EU contributes by far much more to us by being in it than being outside it.

Maybe spend less time telling people how badly they have behaved

Seriously? What does that even mean?

Don't assume that because you have met some racist leave voters, that means all are.

Yeah, because that is exactly what I and anyone else on this thread has said. Sigh.

perhaps have an element of humility and admit that you might not be able to understand fully as an outsider.

Do you feel the same way about Nazi Germany?

I'm really not sure I can debate and listen while someone tells me when torture is appropriate.

Call me a leftie, criticise me for being judgmental but I am not prepared to listen to people telling me "you know sometimes you have to get those thumbscrews out".

I think you need to have an element of humility, Bit of a cow, and admit that you might not be able to understand fully as an outsider.

That's what I certainly plan to do when I watch the KKK victory parade in North Carolina. Good times.

That's absofuckinglutley right birdy as an outsider I have no idea, not one fucking clue, how you can vote for someone who wants to review the use of torture.

Humility? Not me. I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one.

Unfortunately these days, as shown in both Brexit and the Presidential election, people are very vocal about 'pretending' they believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but in reality it's definitely a case of 'you can have your opinion, as long as it is the same as mine'. My opinion on both Brexit and the Trump thing doesn't align to the majority of opinions on here, but I feel I'm entitled to my views without personal abuse, just as I respect other people's rights to their own views, whether I agree with them or not. And to compare the fact Trump winning the election is similar to Hitler leading the Nazis is absolutely insulting as it trivialises the atrocities which happened during those years.

And to compare the fact Trump winning the election is similar to Hitler leading the Nazis is absolutely insulting as it trivialises the atrocities which happened during those years.

I do hope that remark wasn't in response to mine, because if it does it shows that an incredible, even frightening lack of comprehension.

When Hitler was elected no knew he planned genocide. No one voted for that. He did not campaign on a genocide platform.

Hitler was a larger than life character who offered simple solutions. He presented Jews as being responsible for problems in Germany and said removing them would solve the problem. Hitler marginalised minorities and presented himself as a saviour of the nation. Politicians believed they could use democratic means to control him. However, it all got a bit out of hand.

See any similarities there?

The comment Birdy is in response to a lot of similar comments made on MN since the start of the Trump presidency campaign. I'm still not sure why the reference or comparison comes up time after time, but seems totally irrelevant, bordering on hysteria. I think it possibly is quoted and requoted because of the emotions it brings out in people; somehow implying that if you support Trump, you support Hitler. It's a ridiculous comparison, and is the sort of comment that feeds into unhappy and disenchanted people's mentality, which in turn provides people with a 'reason' to protest (riot).

Bitofacow; you are picking out bits of Hitler's rule and personality to fit in with your view of Trump, when you know that the full picture of what Hitler was about was far bigger than you describe. We can all pick out certain attributes of people past and present and apply them to others. It means nothing.

Few populists are Hitler-level-bad, though.
Some are merely Erdogans, Putins, Dutertes, Farages, (sigh).
Comparison to Hitler just undermines the valid criticisms against all those guys..

I also think there is an element of hypocrisy from the left that has caused a lot of people in the middle who are not particularly political to rebel, that for example, white Westerners are expected to embrace multiculturalism and not have any pride in their culture or their history and if they do so they are racist (even if it is something fairly innocuous like wearing a poppy - which apparently means you are pro-war with some of the more hysterical left wingers) but the left would never call for a majority Muslim or black country to embrace multiculturalism, would never call the Japanese racists or bigots for having an almost exclusively homogenous and ethnically pure population (by law), in fact Japanese culture is revered as "cool" even though the exact opposite opinion would be held about a white culture that had the same beliefs/policies.

It's also the lack of scrutiny and criticism for non Western cultures who are openly homophobic, anti-Semitic, treat women like shit and their ability to hate Trump/Farage because they have links or have been endorsed by the Klu Klux Klan or some other right wing group yet when Corbyn gets praise and aligns himself with some of the most homophobic, racist and reactionary Islamists they are supportive of him.

Lets not even get started on how the tolerant, peace loving and anti racist left on campuses treat Jews. There is a lot of hypocrisy going on and obviously there are a lot of quiet people out their who see their private vote as a way to go against this McCarthyism.

As I said to one of my teenagers last night the civil servants in the US and UK have a lot of power (thankfully - watch back episodes of Yes Minister) so both Americans and the British will find new leaders or new post Brexit regimes are likely to go on much as they always have. I don't think we have as much to fear as people think.

However I agree we need to be vigilant both to the importation of sexism and homoboic views of recent immigrants to the UK/EU and also tio any racism from the British. If we could all be kind to others we would get an awful lot further in life.

No one has tried to ban the flag, the poppy, Xmas, or nursery rhymes and the second you make that claim you sound like the BNP.

First they came for the Communists...

LiveLove there are more comparisons but I have to be careful I don't want to appear all 'educated and patronising'.

Hitler offered simplistic infrastructure projects.
It was a time of economic turmoil with many men feeling let down by the establishment - Rust Belt issues?
He wanted to protect German interests in relation to trade.
He was the anti establishment candidate who understood the working man.
He identified groups that could be scapegoated.
He blamed the left for not listening to ordinary people.

However, I don't feel it is helpful to make the link. I am just saying it isn't as silly as people seem to think. I think Trump is more your run of the !I'll butter as lijkk suggests.

Saying history "means nothing" is a little worrying. The point of history is to draw these comparisons so we can learn lessons and not repeat mistakes.

run of the !I'll butter

Run of the mill nutter

I am a left voter - always have been - but on MN and amongst some of my "acquaintances" I am considered right wing because I question and debate.
I have a sixth-former DD who is centre/left. She says glumly, 'Everyone at school thinks I'm a Tory because I don't love Corbyn...'

And as mothertruck3r said, there is a lot of hypocrisy about.

There is a reluctance, on both sides, to listen. There is so much spin that the facts get lost.

Everyone at DS thinks he is a communist because he would vote labour.

Hitler.
Blamed previous politicians for betraying the people.
I'm on a roll as I remember more I'll keep you informed.

"I also think mothertrucker gave an insightful post." Well it's not often you hear that! In relation to the name not the quality of the aforementioned persons posts.

Bitofacow please give it a rest with the "I have to be careful I don't want to appear educated" rubbish. There are plenty of people on all sides of the discussion on this and other threads who are clearly intelligent, well educated and well read and feel no need to pretend otherwise. Please just stop with the patronising.

Yep there's me being patronising again.

Do you think you might be just a tad oversensitive?

It looks like theres a game of Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer going on here with the Right self identifying as the victims, painting the Left as the persecutor which leaves Trump (!) as the Rescuer.
This thread fits the model of the Karpman Drama triangle perfectly.

No I don't. I am interested in discussing Trump, Brexit and politics with other posters. I am just very, very bored of hearing people trot out a load of lines that no-one on the thread is saying like "we musn't listen to experts", "I musn't appear educated as its not acceptable to be educated these days" etc etc. It's just tedious.

It's just another way of stereotyping isn't it? So Gove made some stupid comment about experts. So all leavers dislike experts and everyone has to pretend to be uneducated. It is a strawman and very tedious.

I also think there is an element of hypocrisy from the left that has caused a lot of people in the middle who are not particularly political to rebel, that for example, white Westerners are expected to embrace multiculturalism and not have any pride in their culture or their history and if they do so they are racist (even if it is something fairly innocuous like wearing a poppy - which apparently means you are pro-war with some of the more hysterical left wingers) but the left would never call for a majority Muslim or black country to embrace multiculturalism, would never call the Japanese racists or bigots for having an almost exclusively homogenous and ethnically pure population (by law), in fact Japanese culture is revered as "cool" even though the exact opposite opinion would be held about a white culture that had the same beliefs/policies.

Is there any proof of that? I've never been told not to have any pride in my culture, nor have I been made to feel racist whilst wearing my poppy this week or any other year. I even had it on yesterday while at lunch with a Muslim colleague so I find your post incredibly hard to believe. In fact it sounds like one of those things you see on facebook that gets shared without a shred of proof.