To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Most people vote for what they think will benefit them. - exactly BigChoc

It might not be what benefits them this minute but it will be what benefits them overall, short or long term. (Me too)

Benefitting them includes what they think will be the best world for their children to live in. No-one is going to vote for a world that is worse for their kids. And I agree that dressing it up one way or another is naive at best and delusional at worst.

But many people are calling leave voters racist, and the only "evidence" they have of racism is that the person has voted leave and they believe racism must be the motivation. So the racist action is voting leave.

But who has done that? There has been incidents of racism and xenophobia and a rise in hate crime. I've seen those condemned. I'm not aware of this being attributed to anyone and everyone who voted leave, but even if someone had said that, how is it any better to attribute that to anyone and everyone on the left as in this thread?

a poor Northerner doesn't have to be racist to resent having to compete with an EE immigrant

First, isn't it at all xenophobic? Not even slightly? I mean, imagine a man saying he resented competing for jobs with women. Wouldn't you think that was sexist?

Second, how much of this is misconception and how much is a true reflection of reality? What I mean is, EU migrants make up 3.6% of the UK population. When you account for those who are children, stay at home parents, and businessmen and women who are creating more jobs rather than taking them, there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of increased competition. So how much of an impact is that 3.6% really having?

Third, it was made pretty clear that we weren't going to get freedom of movement of goods and finances without freedom of movement of people, so anyone who voted to leave in order to curb this already small percentage of EU migrants did so mistakenly, imo.

the number of new schools and hospitals built. They were financed under pfi schemes which mean we have billions to pay back over the next ten or so years. Billions!!

If they hadn't built them they'd be criticised for letting the NHS and education go to ruin. If they do build them they're criticised for spending money!

dressing it up one way or another is naive at best and delusional at worst.

Careful, that sounds like you're hurling insults.

People will be so deeply hurt at being called naive or delusional on the internet that that will be the reason they change their vote

So calling people : patronising, naive, delusional, condescending etc is OK

But implying racism is enough to make people change the way they vote?

The way the left has reacted is bad? Accepting the results but moaning a bit is bad? Conceding defeat but wanting to scrutinise the process is wrong.

Using the result to justify racist attacks is fine though.

Above all we need to listen. This is a wake up call (Brexit and Tump) for everyone to realise people have different views from others and it is only by listening to each other and learning from each other we can come together and make the US and UK better places.

Yes, I do think what we used to call the champagne socialists have got totally out of touch with ordinary labour and SNP and UKIP voters all of whom should be natural Labour supporters (and I write that as a Conservative although I only join the party when it has a female leader so back in 79 and now today)

Apparently Trump wants to review "the use of torture" in intelligence gathering. Can I start calling people names now?

Slarti - I am not talking about anyone in particular. I am saying that all people vote in their own best interests - long or short term - and that no-one, on any "side" votes for a world that will be worse for their children.

Maybe the "delusional" makes it insulting - fair enough, apologies, it wasn't personal to anyone - but would anyone truly believe that are not fighting for a world that they themselves want to live in??

I have lost track of what's been linked to on which threads - can I just recommend the Jonathon Pie rant on YouTube. Essential viewing.

Perhaps watch that first Bitofacow before you decide whether to start calling people names now?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs

Link to Jonathon Pie rant

I don't know what you want us to listen to or say to people who voted a sex attacker for president.

I've had plenty of conversations with brexiters who wanted to leave the eu 'because of the Muslims,' or 'because of the poles'- they didn't want to hear facts, they don't want to read articles or listen to expert voices, - they wanted to call me a lefty, a remoaner, a Goldman Sachs stooge, a hater of the people. Apparently there's nothing to worry about, it'll be fine in a couple of months, I need to get a grip.

We're in the grip of populist politics- you don't have to be stupid to think it's a great thing - but it helps.

Again - I was talking about ALL voters including myself voting in self interest.

And I did not call anyone delusional. I said that to call it other than self-interest would be naive and delusional.

And, Bitofacow - you are right that to call all "lefties" condescending, patronising etc is not acceptable.
Calling all Trump voters or Leave voters racists is also not acceptable.

Calling racism when you see it is absolutely the right thing to do. Commenting when you see condescension is also perfectly valid.

Slarti - it is not the spending the money that is the problem - it is that effectively they have more or less privatised the buildings. The terms of the PFI are such that we will be paying extortionate amounts of money well into the future to rich city finance companies. My guess is that some of these prime sites will be sold off to repay debts sooner or later.

I agree wholeheartedly Birdy. What are we supposed to do when faced with that? How do we listen and address their 'fears'? Surely anything other than decent debate would be patronising. But apparently if we give our differing view we are 'hate filled' and 'full of bile'.

Badknee - the buildings can't be sold off, there are tight contracts in place. I know as this is the area I work in in the NHS. PFI isn't perfect, it would be lovely if all the new hospitals could have been built on public money alone but that was impossible. So it's the next best thing. And thank god for it as do you remember what the hospitals were like in the early 90's?? Victorian workhouses that were falling down and infested.

WrongTrouser - that was good. Jonathan Pie Rant - spot on I would say.

I am a left voter - always have been - but on MN and amongst some of my "acquaintances" I am considered right wing because I question and debate.

And yes I agree that DT is all those things and I would never have voted for him had I been an American but what choice did they have? The most sensible choice would have been "None of the above" - and a lot of people made that choice.

bakewelltarty - that is good to know. I knew there were contracts but didn't know that the buildings could not be sold if payments couldn't be met.

I agree we needed buildings and I don't work in this area so don't know the ins and outs. I still don't think that this was the way to do it - and it is certainly not a left-wing way. TB was frightened of taxing businesses and the rich so this was a way of having his cake and eating it. But that's just my view.

The left need to find a way to win, or spend the next decade as nothing more than the liberals or greens, nice enough but not really in the game and not to be trusted with the important stuff. In the US Clintons legacy was more important to those at the top of the democrats than stopping a idiot like Trump.

It's not that difficult to understand is it?

Decent debate - good.
Name calling and insults - not good.

I don't know what you want us to listen to or say to people who voted a sex attacker for president

Perhaps to try to understand people's motivations from a starting point that the majority of people are decent people, probably not so different to you.

Are you in the USA? If not, perhaps have an element of humility and admit that you might not be able to understand fully as an outsider.

Don't assume that because you have met some racist leave voters, that means all are. Accept that people may have a different world view to you because of their experiences and place in society and that your view is no more or less "right" than their's, just different.

Maybe spend less time telling people how badly they have behaved and more time trying to see why there are such different points of view and what would be needed to reduce the division in the UK and America, not increase it.

Since you asked...

birdybirdywoofwoof - re conversations with the Brexiters. Yes that is bad. Half the vote was Brexit - and amongst those are the sort of people you have come into contact with. Not a nice exchange and to be honest it doesn't sound like they want to discuss. But there are others who would discuss it with you and give good reasons for their choice.

With the EU vote many people were on an absolute knife-edge with it - really unsure about which way to go until the last minute. The risks were huge, the facts were too many to comprehend, the future very uncertain either way. Neither choice was going to be perfect.

But there are others who would discuss it with you and give good reasons for their choice.

Nobody has claimed otherwise. In fact, the only people being painted as a homogeneous group are "the left" who, according to the OP and lots of comments, have done nothing but hurl insults and bile at people who do not deserve it.

Wrong trousers - this whole thread started with that news article. That was reasoned debate and no name calling so I'm confused???

As much as I try to understand different people's views it won't change anything will it? Many people who have expressed those views seem relieved that they can finally say it. They don't have to be politically correct anymore, they can speak their prejudices freely now. And that's what they are in most cases just 'prejudices'. Most of them have never encountered a situation where they have lost their job to an immigrant, same with housing, the NHS etc. But they feel that it is a real problem. The media have convinced them of this. The 'facts', yes those pesky facts again, don't bear out their feelings. 3.6% immigration, net contributor to the economy, NHS staffed with much needed immigrants etc etc etc.

In areas that are over concentrated it is our government that have failed them. No investment in schools, social housing etc. So what did they do? They voted us out of the EU and any checks and balances and gave all the power to a right wing Tory government who won't tell us what Brexit means. If it's patronising of me to feel that they have voted against their own best interests then so be it. I doubt very much that May or Trump will worry about the lower earners, the people that are struggling. These people wanted change and I don't blame them but it's the kind of change they have voted for that worries me.

Labour, the Lib Dems and Greens would be far more popular, if instead of wasting so much time trying to thwart Brexit, they could tell us their own vision of a UK outside the EU, and how it would develop in the interests of everyone in this country. Otherwise they risk giving the impression that they can't function without the EU overseeing them.