To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

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guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

no slarti - I was asked for evidence and gave it. Rather than putting forward any kind of argument about it , weneed then told me to 'sit down and have a nice cup of tea'.... , and then she said 'bless'.
In other words she was shutting down any discussion by her use of patronising and belittling language. This in my opinion is typical of lefties.

OK so you will say I am being patronising I accept that.

I was ironically demonstrating what I could say but was not when I said:

(quote) 'sit down dear and have a nice cup of tea'...and 'bless' as I recall...
did you not say that to be patronising and shaming then? hmm

I hoped the level of irony involved indicated the lack of seriousness. I apologise.

The YouTube vids on both sides are appalling. However, the OP stated that the left was hurling insults two articles were sited. Neither were 'hysterical' and only one contained a possible insult. How do these articles prove that the left is hurling insults?

You responded to her request for proof by calling her names! You shut down the debate then played the victim, not forgetting to make another sweeping insult about the left. Have you got any other insults you'd like to throw out while you're at it? Remember, you can tell us it's our fault and say we made you do it afterwards.

typical lefties...

Quote me where I called anyone 'names' then.

I think the mask has well and truly slipped Brat.

wtf? Quote? "names"?

Typical lefties and our patronising irony.

All we want is proof and a reasoned argument.

Typical oversensitive righties.

• For the avoidance of all doubt that last comment was meant to be humorous, it was a pointed comment directed at the people on this thread who enjoy being insulted. It was in no way meant to indicate I do not think they are intelligent merely lacking a sense of irony. Does that help?

Yes I just said that....'slarti' had already accused me of calling you 'names'....
you were very patronsing and you attempted to use 'shaming' language to shut down debate. I have not called anyone names.

"typical leftie who engages in patronising and shaming language" I think that was directed at me. Was it meant as an insult? I don't know.

I think it was certainly meant to insult you, and of course by saying you are a "typical" leftie that insult extends to everyone on the left.

Don't you dare call Trump sexist though...

Sexist.....or disablist or racist. Not Donald. No sireee.

I apologise for my use of irony. I will make it nice and clear next time. Oh am I being patronising??

"No, that's okay then, only calling 37 % of the electorate "white supremacists"

Not every Brexit voter. Why would you claim that? She is clear she is talking about some labour constituencies. There is evidence to back up the claim that anti immigration sentiment played a big part in the way some people in some constituencies voted

If you are not in one of these constituencies and are not racist why are you choosing to be offended?

What Polly Toynbee said was

There is a real danger, in their despair, that they abandon deep values in the name of “realism”. The people have spoken, so knuckle under. Most Labour MPs are in Brexit seats, where white supremacism won the day, and now you can hear some of them humbly promising to “listen” to those voices. But when you have listened, what then? Build walls and more deportation camps?

Weneed The equation OT is making, quite explicitly, is leave voting area equals white supremacists, meaning the people who voted leave. You might not agree with what she is saying, but that is what she is saying. It was one person, one vote so if white supremacy won the day, then the people who voted leave are, according to PT, the white supremacists. And despite what you say, if people have concerns about uncontrolled immigration from the EU, that does not make them racists and does not make them white supremasists. And note the lead on to walls, and deportation camps. I think most people can see what she's doing even if you don't. She does it a lot if you read carefully.

Now to you, that is me "choosing to be offended". To me it is a disgusting, and incorrect (given that people voted leave for various reasons, many nothing to do with immigration and even more nothing to do with race) slur. And it is harmful.

Both the Brexit and the Trump vote showed it was not just a bellow of pain from the poor and the uneducated, but shockingly high numbers of the comfortable and the educated too who joined the whitelash

And what's a "whitelash? Again PT is trying to make out it is,all about race. It isn't, it really isn't. She doesn't understand why people voted leave so she is lashing out with insults.

And I am not "offended" by PT. I think her divisive and hyperbolic writing is causing damage to our country and particularly to the left.

I totally agree with you. The way that the liberal Clinton supporters have reacted to the Trump voters, has put themselves in an extremely bad light, and they have shot themselves in the foot. They are act like spoiled kids throwing their toys out of their pram, it's their way or no way. That is not Democracy. Democracy has happened, and unfortunately DT has been voted as President.

British voters have been moving to the right for some time:

Currently, most voters are against immigration and letting in refugees. However there are many other issues where the public has also moved to the right:
e.g. the benefits cap was so popular that the government has introduced an even lower one, which also seems popular. There are umpteen TV documentaries showing people on benefits
The vast majority on benefits are white, so this issue has nothing to do with feelings about race.

It would be pointless having different political parties if the left just adopt the policies of the right or vice versa, to follow political fashion.

The pendulum swings every decade or so, after the public gets fed up with whoever has been in charge - and failed again - over the previous decade or so.

Currently the left are being called unpatriotic, talking down Britain etc. That doesn't make them more likely to vote left because of hurt feelings.
Ditto if the right are called racist or homophobic.
People surely vote for what they think are the best policies; not because someone called them a rude name.

Remember folks, it's only the "right" that's thick...

I really hope it's fake

"We are at present working discreetly with all our might to wrest this mysterious force called sovereignty out of the clutches of the local nation states of the world. All the time we are denying with our lips what we are doing with our hands."

Professor Arnold J. Toynbee (grandfather of Polly Toynbee) in 1931

slarti A bit of a delay in replying to your points to me.

If someone thinks a label of racism or sexism has been wrongly attributed to someone "by the left" they aren't automatically correct in that opinion and it doesn't stand to reason that "the left" should cease and desist calling out what they perceive to be racism and sexism just in case someone is offended by them

I completely agree with this. What I, and I think the OP and a lot of others on this thread are talking about is the label of racist (or thick, or un-educated or easily duped) being given to someone because they make a choice which you don't agree with when, in fact, the choice could be made for many different reasons, and is for the majority of people not motivated by racism.

So if you (I don't mean you, I mean anyone) see racist or sexist behaviour, you should challenge it. But many people are calling leave voters racist, and the only "evidence" they have of racism is that the person has voted leave and they believe racism must be the motivation. So the racist action is voting leave.

Why is it racist to vote leave? Because your motivation must be racism. How do I know you are racist and therefore motivated by racism? Because you voted leave. And so on and so on.

And if that really stops someone voting for leftist policies then I really don't see how they could be said to have been supporters in the first place

So if, in a time of political and economic upheavel and uncertainty, when political parties are evolving and adapting to changing circumstances, someone feels that they are increasingly being maligned and silenced by some members of a particular political group such that they no longer feel they can trust that group or that their interests will be respected by that group, then that means they didn't really agree with the groups aims in the first place?? Do you read much history?

I think it's simply more likely that lots of people hold right wing views and are either in support of or indifferent to the sexism and racism that accompanies a lot of it. It's not the case that the left, in challenging these ideologies, has somehow pushed people towards them. That's pretty twisted logic

There's a bit of a straw man on this thread that somehow someone has said that those on the left who resort to name calling of racist etc are somehow pushing people towards racism. I don't think anyone is saying this. I am certainly not.

I remember the US President used to respected by both sides ... but that was decades ago.

For at least 20 years, it's sadly normal politics for both sides to insult each others' President, to try to bury him in scandal, to impeach him if possible.
The Republicans spent 8 years slagging off Obama, even saying he was a Kenyan Muslim and unfit to be President - Trump in fact started this "Birther" movement.
So, of course the Democrats will spend all of Trump's term slagging him.

Most Remainers don't call all Leavers racists.
Most Leavers don't call all Remainers traitors.
It's best to ignore when newspapers deliberately provoke - many articles are only there to get clicks for ads.
Most of us rub along together ok

Whereas those who voted for Trump and Brexit did so to turn time back for their personal benefit, those who voted for remain or Hillary Clinton did so because they know time only moves forward, and this benefits society

I've found the opposite. My impression of many people in London who voted remain is that they have personally benefited hugely from immigration so they don't see any downsides, they don't have to worry about paying high rents or paying millions for a home because they either bought properties years ago or have been given help by their middle class families (many also let out properties to immigrants, so they have a very personal stake in keeping immigration going), have a steady flow of Eastern European au pairs who they can pay a pittance, they don't have to compete for menial jobs because they tend to have the kind of middle class jobs that pay well, have a good pension and benefits etc, live near good schools with very few immigrants and little churn, although they consider themselves cultured and intellectual because they read the Guardian, eat in exotic restaurants and go to Brixton Market every once in a while.

They are myopic and only see things through the prism of their own experience of how immigration and the EU has benefited them, ergo, it must be good for everyone and anyone who complains is a racist, Little Englander etc. It just makes them look intellectually vacant imo. They cannot understand that a poor Northerner doesn't have to be racist to resent having to compete with an EE immigrant who will do their job for less and who will push rents up because immigration increases demand. It's the "I'm alright Jack" mentality only with patronising, virtuous and self congratulatory overtones.

mothertruck3r You have made some good points about the different ways that immigration affects the richer people. I see it in London too.

Most people vote for what they think will benefit them.
They just dress it up as being progressive / patriotic / saving their culture / whatever sounds good among their social circle
Some even manage to fool themselves about their motives

Whatever happens, if there is a cost, whether to change or remain the same, it won't be the rich who pay.

I have been out. Back now. Thank you Theaspizzashop for understanding what it was like for my son. I posted because I thought it showed how entrenched the idea that "all Trump voters are totally wrong" really is. I doubt she even realised what had happened. I won't get far with a complaint so I'll leave it. Anyway - she might think I am a Trump supporter - and I can be pretty sure of what else she will think of me then!! He's fine now - he spent the evening watching the football and quoting long lists of football stats at me!

Wrong Trouser - good point about tying to understand how Obama votes turned into Trump voters - or at least not Hillary supporters which in practise was the same thing.

hackmum you picked up my point about things getting worse under Labour and mentioned the number of new schools and hospitals built. They were financed under pfi schemes which mean we have billions to pay back over the next ten or so years. Billions!! - and who made all that money? Who is still getting rich on that? TB's friends in the City.

Increased immigration meant competition for jobs and homes and doctor's appointments and school places all got much tougher.

The abolition of the 10 p tax rate didn't help the poor people at all.