To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

I agree with the poster, and was going to post the same thing after watching last night's Question Time, where Yvette Cooper, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, and Sarah Churchwell all came across as hysterical and dismissive on any other opinion but their own. I sat there thinking 'no wonder the left is in freefall'
In contrast, Jan Halper-Hayes (an American Republican) was well informed and actually listened to other people. I might not have agreed with her, but she was certainly a damn sight more impressive.

These threads always follow the same path, eventually people tire and no longer bother to engage whilst the next election takes place and Trumps will seem like small fry when a European country does not sway to the right but goes crashing to the hard right.

To be honest basketoff that's a load of crap.

You claim you are insulted and then when you can't prove it you say it was lofty. What is it? Grow up. Political debate is bruising. Stop being pathetic. "Oh i don't like what you are saying you big meanies". While your side is being racist, xenophobic and disablist! It's beyond belief.

Extremes on both sides are nutters that the is to he expected. However, when mainstream candidates joke about sexual harassment a line has well and truly been crossed.

'We know best. If you don't agree, , sorry, but, you are wrong.'

Funnily enough that's exactly how I interpreted this thread. "When will the left realise... I keep thinking the light will go on and the penny will drop... They think X caused Y but I know different."

Ultimately this thread seems to be intended purely to subvert the left's challenge to bigotry. By challenging it we are somehow causing it, pushing people towards it and to support it in protest. After nearly 10 pages I've not seen a convincing argument for that or any actual proof it's happening. Perhaps by stating that I've opened myself up to accusations of loftiness or "bile spouting".

Weneed, you're free to think it's crap - I'm not personally insulted by you or by anyone. But the point is, looking down on people, making mass judgements and generalisations and sneering get you nowhere.

If I'm wrong I am wrong. But labour are still in opposition, Trump is still in power and we still elicited to leave the EU.

But the point is, looking down on people, making mass judgements and generalisations and sneering get you nowhere.

So why do it?

Slarti, as I've said, it's one of those 'the proof of the pudding' points.

Perhaps there is a totally different reason as to why the Left are not just failing to gain power but more worryingly the more extreme right wing are gaining momentum. But it seems obvious to me - yet I'm genuinely interested to hear why you think this might not be the case.

They call reasoned arguments insulting because they have no come back. No facts to back up their claims. When faced with no answer they fall back on being 'hurt'.

Let's take immigration - People might think that immigration is causing all the worlds woes but it's simply not true. Look at the numbers and facts about immigration. Yes, it causes problems in certain areas of high concentration but it is the government that have chosen to turn its back on sorting these issues out. As a country we need immigration and it is a net contributor to our economy. I know people don't like facts these days but you really can't argue with them because they are true!

As for The USA, the whole place was built on the hard work of immigrants that now proudly call themselves American.

'They have no comeback'
'People might think ... But it's not true'
'I know people don't like facts these days but you can't argue with them.'

Genuinely, are any of those statements going to convince a voter who hadn't decided how to vote, to vote for you?

To be honest -8if people have those views, no reasoned debate will ever change them. It's much easier for then to blame everyone else for their problems.

it's one of those 'the proof of the pudding' points.

Could you explain what you mean by that?

My view, as I said before, is that more people are supporting right wing movements and policies because more people hold those views. I find it incredibly hard to believe that they don't hold those views and are simply voting against their own political leanings as a protest against something.

But bakewell, if labour want to gain votes, they have to address them.

If the suffragettes had said what you did, we'd all still be running around in skirts with a dozen children! :)

The Left have simply got to engage with and convince people they are worth voting for. Writing them off as 'oh well, they are too stupid to understand!' is in itself a bit stupid.

Out of interest Basket - what do you think would change people's views??? How would I get someone to vote for me and my reasoned critical thinking based on facts? Not my facts but the real facts or do you just feel that they do not exist?

My FB is 90% Trump loathers & no one is hurling insults. One person said the supporters were deluded. That's as heavy as it got.

I agree that those (the 25.01% of eligible Americans) who voted for Trump wanted this. They don't mind a sexpest President. They want an entertainging Prez. They don't care about climate change or relations with Iran & Cuba. They feel shafted about their health insurance no matter who is in charge. They don't care if Trump gets nothing done in next 4 yrs ("because the system is rigged" against him). Painful, but true. They don't just reject Clinton, they wanted DT.

Bakewell, I think we have to engage with people's concerns.

For example, 'immigration benefits the economy'- fine.

'Immigration does benefit the economy, but we recognise it can lead to surges in the population which puts pressure on local services and housing. Therefore, we are going to address these by XYZ.'

I'm not looking down on you. Please argue. Please put forward points that makes sense. How is that patronising? How is asking someone to prove what they say patronising? It is the absolute basis of debate.

I'm not sneering I would be relived if you made sense. I don't agree with most Tories but I can see the arguments they make.

The OP said the left was being insulting and then quoted an article that was not insulting. Bile was being thrown around and an article with one possibly insulting comment was used tonprove it.

YouTube videos of bigots on both sides prove nothing. The thread was about mainstream media. The YouTube video is horrid but it is not what you say it is. You say "lone woman" - she has a cameraman and is supported by the police. The video shows bad behaviour on the left. Your description of it is just wrong.

Totally agree with the last couple of posters. People want this, they believe it. Trump et al have played on these emotions to gain power to do what they want with.

It's just shame that most of those voters will be well and truly shafted.

But Basket- most people who have the biggest problem with immigration live in areas that are not densely populated with immigrants. It's the fear that drives them, egged on by the media and the far right.

" How is that patronising? "

you told me to (quote) 'sit down dear and have a nice cup of tea'...and 'bless' as I recall...
did you not say that to be patronising and shaming then?
is that really the best you can do? and then talk to me about 'arguments'.
Pathetic.

The daily mail, to paraphrase Jesus, has always been with us - or for a long time anyway :)

Yet while racist bigots have always been amongst us too, the far right are gaining support on an unprecedented level not just in the UK but in Europe and in America now it would seem.

We have to look at why this is and look beyond 'meedja/ stoopid.'

weneed you asked me for evidence and I gave it to you, and you then demonstrated nicely how lefties like to shut down any debate. Dear.

Totally agree with you OP, but you see this played out again even on this very thread.

I find it astonishing that in such a multi-faceted issue such as Brexit or the US election that anyone might think they're in possession of the universal truth and everyone who disagrees is deluded/thick/doomed to disappointment when they get their comeuppance etc.

People are different and this is the reason they arrive at different decisions.

you then demonstrated nicely how lefties like to shut down any debate. Dear.

Quite the opposite. That was inviting debate. What you did by refusing to engage and making accusations of offence was shut it down. You are trying to explain to others how their whole worldview is wrong and how they need to do things differently, then if anyone disagrees or shows any scepticism you play the victim. Your views are your opinion, you have no entitlement for them to be accepted or to force them on anyone else.

It's just shame that most of those voters will be well and truly shafted

Isn't that the rhetoric that the op is alluding to, "silly voters, can't read between the lines", did you not read the Washington post article on exit polls, the majority wanted change, the same upswell that is happening here with Corbyn, it was the DNC and Hillary they lost this! Sanders was on the same anti establishment mantra and was winning key states (which turned to trump in the end) until Hillary "It's my turn!" Decided to use very dirty tactics to make sure she was the candidate.

They didn't listen, people are pissed of and even though your average rust belt blue collar worker is not articulate and cannot back up their stance with hard cold facts (much like brexiters being asked for European rules) doesn't mean there fears or concerns should be brushed aside.

This is a kick in the teeth, the same as brexit, people don't care that if it doesn't change anything, being told they are silly is not going to win them back as these votes are just a shot across the bow, the "left" need to start looking out for everyone that they say they do, and not play identity politics and start trying to use discussing language such as whitelash etc.

Agree with you op.

The thing to me is the far right and the far left just seem so immature in their ability to listen.

They are stuck in perpetual foot stamping not listening toddlerhood and for me momentum are as tedious as the EDL.

The vast majority of the general population have just grown up and can debate without hurling insults.