... to let all you chancers know that there's no MN Secret Santa this year

[BIWI]

Mumsnet is a very different place now, compared to a few years ago, when the lovely Soapy set up the first secret Santa.

It's become a much bigger site, which obviously benefits MNHQ, but it's made a secret Santa untenable.

There have been a lot of rumblings over the last few years from people about whether we want it or not. But ultimately it's become just too big and unmanageable a job for anyone to handle.

So all you chancers who wait until this time each year to post your sob stories no longer need to bother.

The addresses were in my PMs from previous SS btw.

As this thread has shown mrsk, some posters define anyone asking for help, however difficult their situation, as a chancer. One poster of this opinion felt that this thread legitimised her view to the point that she could 'agree' with the OP by stating her scorn of people who couldn't get by on their own. So that's how some people are reading the op and I think language that lends itself to that interpretation, whether intentionality or not, needs curbing.

Many other posters seem to have read the op as a warning that an OP talking about difficult finances or desperate finances is probably trying to get a handout (which, if genuine, should not be condemned) or, more likely, a scammer (in which case they deserve everything the self righteous bullies of MN can throw at them, defying MNHQ's desire to report such people rather than enjoy executing mob justice). Still others like sauce seem to feel this attitude is fine because an OP can prove themselves by stating that they didn't accept any offers of help - a heartless viewpoint that assumes posters stop the persecution when this is said (they don't, as other threads have shown) and that accepting an offer of help is a dirty thing and somehow proof that you're a scammer. Think about that. A desperate mum having to turn down a kind and much needed offer of help in order to escape abuse from other parents -abuse that is not even 'allowed' to take place on MN. (Ironic that these seasoned old timers care so little about MN rules; they are quick enough to report a transgression when it is aimed at themselves).

Regardless of the naivete of helping a stranger, it is perfectly permissible for another adult to do this and they shouldn't be insulted for doing so. It's not against the rules. Regardless of the number of scammers about, asking for help and openly receiving help is not wrong and is not permission to insult or shame. A poster in need shouldn't have to turn down help to prove they're not a scammer. If my kids were hungry and facing a barren Christmas I'd knock on every door I could think of and gratefully accept whatever was offered. Of course I'd feel ashamed and people trying to make me feel ashamed would make it much harder - though it would say more about them than me.

If you think the poster is not genuine, report it and if you wish to be especially ' helpful ', PM other posters on that thread. But don't think it's ok to slam someone who might well be desperate and vulnerable on the basis that they might be a scammer and in any case, shouldn't be asking strangers for help. That's just low.

The gap between rich and poor is widening in the UK. Poverty is increasing. Charities are overstretched and inadequate. Government assistance in many cases is laughable. There are going to be more and more people in truly desperate circumstances. There will be more legitimate requests for help regardless of how much is given to charity. Not everyone may want to risk giving to a stranger but there is no excuse for cultivating an atmosphere of abuse towards people who talk about their material needs.

Similar to MrsKwazi - this thread is clearly aimed AT the chancers and scammers, not the people who are in genuine need.

Yes, there is a risk that genuine posters might be mistaken for scammers - but they're not the people BIWI is addressing, she couldn't have been clearer that she is aiming her post and thoughts directly at the cheats who come on to this forum specifically to try and get money/gifts/whatever out of the well-meaning and charitable posters on this forum.

I think it is a ridiculous extrapolation to assume that people will automatically think "oh I must be a chancer because BIWI said anyone with a sob story is a chancer" - rubbish. BIWI has not said that. People who are in genuine need KNOW they are in genuine need, and therefore are not chancers.

I can't believe this needs explaining.

Well said Thumb.

Yes, to MrsK and Thumb.

Slender seems to be reading a completely different OP to the rest of us.

I assume nothing, slender. Any attacks on an OP who makes it clear they only wish to tap into the wealth of support and knowledge of MN should not be harassed and there is adequate recourse to the Report button should you, I or anyone else witness that.

Interesting that you have me down as a 'seasoned old timer'. I do idly wonder who indeed you are and what your investment is in being so adamant that people should open their wallets without question the minute someone posts that they are financially embarrassed on a large anonymous parenting forum.

I prefer to just support local schemes - cash for kids, woman's aid, food bank etc through the year and more so at xmas. I never joined in these things on mn so maybe that is why I don't get worked up about people posting in need at xmas and am happy to direct them towards sources of support such as those I give to myself. The title of this thread is goady without a doubt and imo posting the thread was not a good idea. Posting stuff to random people online is never a good idea and no website should ever encourage it, mn are absolutely right on this.

Clearly I've completely misunderstood the whole point of MNSS all these years. I've always had the view that it's a way of (hopefully) sending a little brightness to people who have dealt with tough situations during the year - relationship breakdowns, bereavement, illness etc, or an acknowledgement of the support and advice given by posters, often at great emotional cost to themselves. I have never considered it to be means of supplying Christmas in cases of financial hardship that are only posted at about the time nominations for SS open. The gifts I have sent have always been (hopefully) of the 'nice to have as an extra' variety rather than necessities in order to reflect this.
I've been here almost 10 years and BIWI has been on my radar IYSWIM, for much of that time.

If you think the poster is not genuine, report it and if you wish to be especially ' helpful ', PM other posters on that thread.

Posters do this, plus MNHQ post their standard message, yet chancers still try to scam and some people still get drawn in.

As previous posters have said, there's a world of difference between a genuine thread and a scammy thread, and posters respond accordingly on them.

I do idly wonder who indeed you are and what your investment is in being so adamant that people should open their wallets without question the minute someone posts that they are financially embarrassed on a large anonymous parenting forum.

Fair enough. I'm not in a position to need help. I'm lucky - I could easily have ended up in a different situation. Like most of us, I have donated in a variety of ways in the past, with varying degrees of success. I've met people who were trying it on and people who were desperate.

I haven't said I think people should 'get their wallets out'. I don't think they should be abused if they choose to do so (i.e., called stupid). I don't think people who ask or who talk about their financial difficulties should be abused for doing so. I don't think that people who talk about their difficulties should have to refuse offers of help and state repeatedly that they have refused offers of help in order for the abuse to stop. Which is what happened on a thread this week. That's bullying, as was implied in the thread deletion message. And yes, if I see it again I will waste no time in reporting it.

Posters do this, plus MNHQ post their standard message, yet chancers still try to scam and some people still get drawn in.

That's no excuse to turn vigilante on someone else's forum.

I also really disagree with you about your complacent presumption that posters always do the right thing and spot a scammy thread correctly.

On the thread that was deleted earlier in the week, many posters couldn't wait to troll hunt. When the thread was deleted, MNHQ were very clear that they had deleted the thread NOT because the poster was a troll (their capitals) but because of the way other posters behaved.

So no, you don't get to use that excuse to behave however you want to, ignore the guidelines and troll hunt with abandon. Scammers can lie convincingly and genuine posters can sound awkward. (And in any case, it's been shown on this thread that some posters behave as badly to someone in real need who dares to ask strangers to help as they do to a scammer). Most of the time, we don't know who is behind the screen and the obligation is to remember that they really might be as desperate as they sound.

It's not so very difficult to exercise a moment of self-restraint and hit the report button, rather than shoot your mouth off to someone who may be at their lowest ebb already.

Last post to mrsk

But where does it end? How do we decipher who should be sent money/food or shouldn't? How do we know who is real or who is not.

How much do we get involved?

I'm not engaging with the question of if you should give. I agree that's a tough one. I'm talking about how we should respond to and talk about posters who mention their financial difficulties and/or ask for help. And of course those who do give shouldn't be labelled stupid or anything else.

Say what you like, this thread will have caused shame and embarrassment to people who have either been helped by MN in the past or who are desperate now and were wondering where to turn. It is unlikely to stop real scammers from having a go because they tend to be shameless. It's likely to silence genuine people who deeply care and find it difficult to ask people in RL for help because they find it so shaming. The thread title casts a shadow over everyone who has been a recipient of secret santa or who has asked for help. It does its little bit to legitimise disgraceful responses like we saw earlier this week on the thread that was deleted.

There are almost certainly better ways to help people than MN secret santa, yes.

I don't disagree with your point about troll hunting on threads. It's wearisome, unhelpful and often aids scammers by making people feel sorrier for them.

Also, I don't think that posters always call a scam thread right. I think that you can spot the difference though and should report to MNHQ. That's what I do.

I've been a SS recipient in the past and giver. This thread does not make me feel any of the negative emotions that you are suggesting and I don't see how it will stop people in genuine need for asking for advice.

It's like the little boy who cried wolf though.

For every genuine "I'm scraping down the sofa for tuppence for a tub of marge" thread, there are probably 9 scammers.

People getting aggressive about people calling out the scammers, or warning people about the scammers, are, frankly, getting mad at the wrong person. The scammers deserve your bile, the fakesters, the "here's a photo of my dead baby" ones (and how many of those do the "troll hunters" spot every year.....there have been a handful at least that I know of this year, and I'm not on MN 24/7) and the chancers. (and let's not forget, many of them are also "long term and well known MNers" (like that means anything...) Not the people who warn others (who, with their "oooh PM me your details, I'll send you some old bibs") need their internet privileges revoking until they can learn to use it responsibly. And yet, it's people like the ones on this thread who can spot them a mile off, who get the grief.

There are loads of scammers/ begging threads on here. Honestly you'd have to be really stupid to not spot them.

They always follow a formula. There is always a drip read a little in to the thread ro elicit more sympathy. There are always loads of suggestions from posters about how to help, and the OP will remain silent about those suggestions.
She/ he will nearly always then come back to the thread to say that she is unable to take up suggestions because of X y, z.

There is nearly always young children and a dog in the mix. I've come to the conclusion that some people have a saviour complex, and want to rescue the OP.
On the very few occasions I have taken a look at the relationship board, this saviour/ rescue mentality seems to be very prevelant there as well.

(to slender, not MrsK)

I'm baffled by the continuous need to miscontrue this thread. And the insults levied at me are particularly unnecessary and unpleasant. Especially being told I'm a bigot, or comparing me to Donald Trump.

But I also need to correct something said earlier. Although I've taken part in the Christmas Appeal (as a donor and also as a recipient), I didn't have anything to do with organising it. I can't take any credit for all the hard work that MNetters, and then MNHQ, put into organising it.

For the last, and final, time. This thread is aimed at the chancers who look to scam MNetters. It isn't about 'newbies' (and nowhere did I say it was - after all, we were all newbies once) and nor is it about those who are in genuine need. It's actually in defence of those who might be in need, who are no longer seen as genuine because of the scammers we've had over the years.

Sorry if you don't like that slender.

... and also, a massive thank you to those of you who have posted in support of me, especially as I don't know you and have never actually met any of you! I'm very grateful.