for thinking this is demeaning?

[baconandeggies]

The word 'menial', as in "He has a menial job"

It seems a bit loaded to me... Implies it's "less important" and can be looked down upon. Surely it comes from the same root as demeaning anyway?

There's nothing wrong with having a more 'manual' job..

Reminds me that a flatmate once exclaimed "I'd never marry a man who had a menial job, like a dustbin man, or a cleaner or something"

Why not just say 'manual' job, if you must describe it as anything other than the actual job title.

So does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?

roundaboutthetown

I guess it depends on the university. I had in mind two of the most prestigious.

Nothing whatsoever to do with prestige - more to do with numbers of people competing for places. My dsis only applied to the prestigious places, coming from a medical family and all... there just weren't as many people competing for the places, then, and fewer people taking A-levels in the first place.

But anyway, we were not discussing mere doctors, to begin with, but surgeons who have a considerably higher status and who have clearly successfully passed the various tests.

Oh I think it has a great deal to do with the prestige of the university which accepts you. It was ever this.

manual job does not equal menial job

For example, construction work is manual, but is very often complex and not at all menial.

Construction = manual AND involves thinking/mental work, menial is just manual

Re doctors: I know someone who got high grades on his GAMSAT (the post grad med school entrance exam) and got turned down by every med school he applied to! He had the grades but he was a weirdo with no interpersonal skills. They do select for personality too

You really think so, Alexa? When Prince Charles got into Cambridge? I don't think ''twas ever thus at all.

Corrected version. I hate my phone.
"AlexaTwoAtT

Oh I think it has a great deal to do with the prestige of the university. It was ever thus."

Prince Charles was an exception. As was William getting into St Andrews.

Hardly a great example, roundabout. Like exceptions weren't going to be made for royalty...

Not read full thread. But YANBU. It is insulting. I teach in a school & we would be lost without the people doing so called menial jobs. For example my classroom gets cleaned, rubbish is disposed of, the school is opened up & locked up, there is a hot lunch available, photocopying gets done. All of these things I am very grateful for & I don't consider them to be less worthy than myself as a teacher. Less stressful but then the pay reflects that.

Look back 30 years and see the offers universities were giving to would-be medical students then, floggingmolly and Alexa2. I promise you will find they were not requiring the topmost grades... As for 60 years ago, my df trained with some real dimwits...

roundaboutthetown

Times have changed. Clearly.

As I have pointed out numerous times, a large element of that relates to the degree of competition for places, not the need for topmost grades to make a good doctor...

Why would there have been less competition for places at medical school thirty years ago?

Fewer people taking A-levels and considering university. When my df was at medical school, virtually all doctors were privately educated. When my dsis applied, a large proportion were, and/or already came from medical backgrounds, making work experience and demonstrating a prior interest extremely easy.

YANBU
Lots of skilled people couldn't do their jobs as well or even at all without those who do so-called 'menial' jobs. Menial does sound derogatory. It might mean unskilled but that doesn't make it less worthy.

One of the dinner ladies at my old school had two degrees. She was a qualified architect in her country of birth.

I find it best not to make assumptions based on someone's job.

Using the comparison of Doctor and Cleaner is not make particularly good argument IME. Its one comparison.

An advertising executive is not classed as a menial worker and will get paid a great deal more than a hospital porter.
A hospital cannot run without porters and they do very important work.

As pp have pointed out, we cannot manage without cleaners and service staff, retail workers and bin men.
There are lots of jobs where people work hard, get paid good money but are not exactly vital.

Our society tends to respect people because they are not 'menial workers even if no one is completely sure what their job title means.

Menial sounds derogatory because its meant to.

Its not a word I would use to describe someone's occupation.

The origin of the word menial is domestic, the unskilled work that domestic servants used to do. It does not refer to manual work though some menial chores can be manual work IYSWIM Nowadays it seems to be used to describe unskilled labour.

What domestic work is not manual work? As for unskilled labour - what labour is genuinely devoid of all skill? IMO, menial work is a term too frequently used for work that we need a lot of people to do and want to try to justify paying them very little for. Very little genuinely menial work is performed by human beings these days - this work has largely been taken over by machines, because they are more easily exploited.

Oh come on roundabout , I can think of at least three examples from my office building alone. I think it is insulting to the lady who staffs the shop and who frequently looks bored out of her brain to suggest that she is having to exert herself mentally to empty the coffee machine, work the till and restock the shelves.

Sounds like she's bored through lack of things to do if her only responsibilities are emptying a coffee machine, working the till, restocking shelves and looking bored.

What else would you have someone running a small shop in an office building do?

It's not offensive in its meaning but it sounds like your friend was using it in a derogatory way. I doubt she will be happy until she can stop being a cow.

If actually running it, then decide when to order new stock and do so? Decide what to stock? Decide how much to charge? Do the stocktaking? Decide how to set everything out and store it? Keep an eye on sell by dates and obey hygiene standards? Talk to customers? Deal with sales returns? Actually make some coffee before cleaning out the machine? Fix it when it gets jammed? Do the bookkeeping? I think you'd know what skills were required if she were lacking them, as you wouldn't be able to get what you wanted, you'd be given the wrong change, the coffee machine would be filthy, etc, etc. I presume you don't mean she is running the shop, though, as you believe it to be menial work.