for thinking this is demeaning?

[baconandeggies]

The word 'menial', as in "He has a menial job"

It seems a bit loaded to me... Implies it's "less important" and can be looked down upon. Surely it comes from the same root as demeaning anyway?

There's nothing wrong with having a more 'manual' job..

Reminds me that a flatmate once exclaimed "I'd never marry a man who had a menial job, like a dustbin man, or a cleaner or something"

Why not just say 'manual' job, if you must describe it as anything other than the actual job title.

So does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?

Ok.. negative dictionary definitions of the word menial: lowly, sometimes degrading, now used chiefly as a term of disparagement.

It wouldn't be polite to say "your shoes are not as nice as mine" either, but it might actually be true... Not saying something doesn't make it disappear. I can't think of a single reason why someone in an exalted position should actually make a comment like that, because it would be outrageously rude.
But it would be true.

People here who call refuse and professional cleaning menial, have no idea of the actual skills required for the work. It takes more skill, in fact, to be a cleaner or a binman than a clerical/admin assistant (something even a school leaver can fall into).

Do you just want to ban the word 'menial'? Because that is nuts. As you say, saying it to someone's face isn't polite, but who on earth would do that anyway? It is a real word and has a meaning which is sensibly applied to a job like a cleaner. It's a real word, just like 'nuts', or 'batshit' or 'over-invested' or 'weird'. Which you wouldn't say to anyone's face but those kinds of behaviour do happen...

I think the difference of opinion here is that some see the term as a degrading insult, whilst others see it as a neutral adjective.

I can see both sides - obviously agree more with the first - but I do understand.

No, my AIBU was "Does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?"

No man is an island. It may be harder to replace the surgeon, but we have a bad habit of thinking that anyone can do menial work and getting what we deserve as a result - filthy hospitals and seriously understaffed, substandard care homes. For supposedly intelligent people, some doctors still have very poor hygiene standards themselves, too... We all rely on each other and often take others for granted. We also like to pretend that some roles are menial just because we need lots of people to do them, so couldn't possibly afford to pay these people what they are actually worth when they are good at what they do.

So why do so many people take these low paid roles, instead of getting qualified to do something more illustrious?

We need lots of people to take low paid roles. Lots of these people are very bad at them. There aren't enough people really good at these jobs to go around.

I still think the word menial just means low skilled and it's not derogatory. If we move away from the surgeon scenario and move to my job as a project manager in clinical research, I could still do more menial administrative roles, but not everyone is qualified to do mine, I don't think admin roles are less important, I more than understand the necessity and recruit accordingly BUT it is a low skilled job. Not 'no' skilled, so you still need to follow instructions and get on with the job but you don't need to have a minimum of degree level education, you don't need to have experience in clinical research and be competent in other skills. I can still do the admin job and previously have done it. No one looks down on anyone else, we see the need for different roles and the skills/responsibility and salary vary accordingly. We train and develop some of the admin staff that have degrees and want to progress, those with non biomedical degrees often want to stay where they are and we don't judge! I personally have stepped down a role in my career to fit in with family life and if I was on a lower salary, I would be highly likely to try out a more menial role to help juggle work/family/home life in order to protect my MH because my job does not define me and I would not care if it was menial or not.

I am not a native speaker, but have always considered "menial" more of a description of the job than any statement on the value of the person working in it.

If something is boring, repetitive work, and badly paid because it requires little training, then I don't see why it should be made to sound better than it is.

In fact, I don't even think it is doing those people working in this kind of job a favour.

It is a bit like calling a prostituted woman a "sex worker", making this sound like a nice and shiny job that anyone should be happy to have, while completely erasing the fact that many prostituted women are modern slaves.

If you have to clean up other people's dirt for a living, then that's not glamorous, and no amount of nice wording is going to make it so.

Let's just acknowledge that some jobs are shit, and that the people who do them should be paid better to make up for this.
Also, that there are inequality structures that mean some people have to do the shit jobs without adequate compensation.

The answer was contained in your question, roundaboutthetown. Could a possible reason so many people in low paid roles are so bad at doing those roles be that they're actually not fit for anything above and beyond - I have to say it, menial work?
And those that would have the intelligence to do it well, actually apply this intelligence to attaining more qualified, better paid work?

Menial is a revoltingly sneery word.

I can't imagine ever using it in conversation and I would worry about any person I heard using it and it would make me judge them as snobs frankly and rather stupid and definitely insensitive.

Yes it has origins and yes it has a meaning but it is only ever used to diminish the category of person it refers to. Nobody has ever used the word menial as a compliment or as praise.

Every job that needs to be done is important - and some of the jobs sneered most at are the most important ones.

Cleaning for example - hospitals lose patients at terrifying rates after surgery due to infections caused by inadequate cleaning because cleaning is NOT low-skilled and requires a certain amount of intelligence and dilligence to be done properly.

What on earth is the point of a highly-skilled surgeon battling for hours to save a patient's life for all their work to be wasted when that patient dies of an infection caused by bad hygiene practices?

I myself caught a digusting infection after an elective caesarian - because the toilets in the hospital and the ward itself were filthy.

You can't 'not pay attention' to jobs like this - you have to do them properly or there are consequences.
If more people respected the tasks they do and if people were encouraged to respect every job of work done then maybe people would choose to do so-called low-skilled jobs who might otherwise avoid them. And maybe they would be happier doing those jobs for all sorts of reasons. Personally I think people who work looking after people in homes are doing an incredibly important job that requires huge resources of patience and skill to be done properly and I respect anyone who does that job well.

I have a high IQ and was pushed towards the professions as a girl. I am someone who might easily have ended up a surgeon. I would also say that people who think that surgeons could easily do the job of cleaners are mistaken - I spent plenty of time with people who were destined to become surgeons and while they may be excellent at the niche skills they train for they were extremely clueless in general life skills and many of them were not even capable of basic household tasks and would recoil in horror from anything germy. Remember they are used to dealing with sterile environments and wear gloves and masks to protect themselves. So cleaning is unlikely to be one of their skillsets and they would probably not do it well at all.

I went to dental school to study dentistry. But really I wanted to be a hairdresser or train to make jewellery. I spent decades faffing about starting various 'acceptable' careers for someone of my educational standard because I'd been conditioned to think I had to seek a prestigious career. I had a bash at Law and IT and I was a maths & science teacher. I could do any of these things and I could do them well but they made me miserable.

Now in my fifties I'm finally realising that any job that makes a person feel contented at the end of the day and any job that makes a person feel like getting up in the morning is the best job in the world. All this dividing up of tasks into 'high status' and 'low status' harms everyone no matter what status job they find themselves doing.

Of course some people get more money doing one thing than another but anyone who calculates the value of anybody else as a person based on their earning capacity is someone I consider shallow and ill-informed.

For exampleI know who I would consider more valuable to the world out of Donald Trump or Vincent Van Gogh.

I would consider more valuable to the world out of Donald Trump or Vincent Van Gogh.

?
if you apply ultitarian theory undoubtedly will be Donald Trump-created a lot of jobs, put more back into the economy- hell even entertained the masses on the apprentice.

Vincent van Gogh will have actually affected the lives of very few people. how many people go to art galleries? they middle classes really. Who can afford to buy an original van gogh?

What is your field, OP? You haven't actually said.

Floggingmolly - I didn't ask a question, but thank you so much for answering your own question as though your personal view wasn't already obvious from the question you had asked. Either someone can do a job adequately or they can't. So many people view menial as meaning anyone can do it that they get the hospital infections they deserve...

And, TBH, how many people actually can cope with caring for elderly people? From the numbers in care homes rather than living with family, I would say not many.

Not all jobs are equal but all jobs are important. So yes, of course it is far tougher to be a surgeon than to be a cleaner but it's equally as important that the theatre is pristine as it is that the surgeon does a good job.

Menial is the correct word to describe a low skilled job but it is derogatory. Where would we be without cleaners, bin men, waiting staff, bar staff, cashiers etc?

Since skill means the ability to do something well, it's a shame we think hospital cleaning is a low skilled job.

Even referring to jobs as low skilled is derogatory, as that implies the job doesn't require practise to perfect - that any old joe could come in and do it well. In reality, someone good at an admin job needs to have had a lot of practise to become fast, efficient and accurate. Someone good at a cleaning job needs to have effective techniques, to understand what works and what doesn't, to be quick, thorough and efficient and not just be spreading the germs around on their cleaning materials. Someone good at being a carer needs to know how to deal with potential violence, unpredictability, extreme neediness, foul body odours and excretions, frail bodies, maintaining human dignity and self esteem, etc, etc. These are not actually low skilled jobs.

I am in a 'menial' job now (Band 2) and I much prefer it to my previous, professional role.

The higher up you are, the more stress there is...in my previous professional role I was expected to be available 7 days a week and could work up to midnight if I was summoned. I would have to change my plans if I was called to sort out a project that came to a standstill due to technical issues.

There was a consultation period a few years ago and I survived, barely.

No 'job security' and no private pension and no perks. The axe was always swinging over our heads to improve productivity.

Now, in my 'menial' role, I am appreciated, I have a pension, permament contract, paid for travel and many perks besides. Stess levels are nearly zero (I'm still adjusting to the job role).

Hmmm, which one would I prefer to do?

Maybe complexity would be a better word?

"Floggingmolly

So why do so many people take these low paid roles, instead of getting qualified to do something more illustrious?"

It couldn't be because they lack the academic intelligence, could it?

"roundaboutthetown

Even referring to jobs as low skilled is derogatory, as that implies the job doesn't require practise to perfect - that any old joe could come in and do it well. In reality, someone good at an admin job needs to have had a lot of practise to become fast, efficient and accurate. Someone good at a cleaning job needs to have effective techniques, to understand what works and what doesn't, to be quick, thorough and efficient and not just be spreading the germs around on their cleaning materials. Someone good at being a carer needs to know how to deal with potential violence, unpredictability, extreme neediness, foul body odours and excretions, frail bodies, maintaining human dignity and self esteem, etc, etc. These are not actually low skilled jobs."

And the surgeon? What sorts of skills does h/she? Why don't they make your list?

And the surgeon? What sorts of skills does h/she have? Why don't they make your list?