for thinking this is demeaning?

[baconandeggies]

The word 'menial', as in "He has a menial job"

It seems a bit loaded to me... Implies it's "less important" and can be looked down upon. Surely it comes from the same root as demeaning anyway?

There's nothing wrong with having a more 'manual' job..

Reminds me that a flatmate once exclaimed "I'd never marry a man who had a menial job, like a dustbin man, or a cleaner or something"

Why not just say 'manual' job, if you must describe it as anything other than the actual job title.

So does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?

They don't make my list because I have never heard anyone describe a surgeon's job as low skilled or menial, whereas on this thread, jobs as cleaners, careers and admin assistants have been. I therefore picked up on other people's expressed opinions and thus felt no need to defend the low-skilled surgeons of this world. But since you ask, surgeons need a steady hand, good skills of concentration, good observation skills, stamina, good anatomical knowledge, an understanding of disease processes, an ability to work with others on whom they rely, an ability to perform repetitive tasks but to be prepared for the unexpected and stressful. They ought also to have a good manner with patients when they are awake, but often rely on the anaesthetists to calm patients down after they have unwittingly upset someone with their brusque manner, poor explanations and apparent arrogance.

My question was a rhetorical one.

It came across more as obtuse. Maybe you just aren't skilled at rhetoric, yet.

The lesser skilled work is described as menial when directly compared to the much higher skills of a surgeon (or equivalent). Because it is.
The "skills" you describe are those that just about everyone can acquire with sufficient practice.
They don't take 7+ years of intensive training. Or particularly high intelligence to begin with, to be brutally frank.

Sorry, but regardless of the amount of training I received, I don't think I would make a very good care assistant. I lack the patience and natural compassion, in addition to coping badly with the smell of adult urine and faecal matter.

Plenty of people with "higher" skills lack the organisational ability, attention to detail, patience, empathy, physical stamina and practical skills to do quite a lot of jobs many people would describe as "menial."

You can disagree with an OP without goading them and making personal comments.

FWIW, I agree that menial is a loaded term for some people. I think it depends on context. I don't think Care work is menial at all and people who think that may rapidly change their tune if they ever find themselves unable to even turn over in bed unaided. Society doesn't value the lower skilled jobs enough, hence why people have issues with the term "menial".

"roundaboutthetown

It came across more as obtuse. Maybe you just aren't skilled at rhetoric, yet. grin"

Ah. The one who has to resort to the "irritated grimace-grin" is the one who has no proper comment to make.

"roundaboutthetown

... in addition to coping badly with the smell of adult urine and faecal matter."

In this, you are not unique.

AlexaTwoAtT - I have yet to read a proper comment from you. Are you making more attempts at rhetoric?

"Floggingmolly

The lesser skilled work is described as menial when directly compared to the much higher skills of a surgeon (or equivalent). Because it is.
The "skills" you describe are those that just about everyone can acquire with sufficient practice.
They don't take 7+ years of intensive training. Or particularly high intelligence to begin with, to be brutally frank."

Well said. Some posters appear not to want to take high intelligence into account but this is hardly surprising given that surgeons do, of course, need to be impressively intelligent. They are widely lauded for that very good reason.

Milky, I think you are being frank but also honest and not merely postulating.

Grrr @ pred txt.

I mean "Molly"!

High intelligence isn't enough. It's a mistake that is often made when highly intelligent people are pushed in a direction that does not suit them, just because they are intelligent. And, tbf ,according to my df, who was a Dr, there are plenty of not particularly bright doctors, so the intelligence requirement is not quite so high as some people think.

I can't imagine ever using it in conversation and I would worry about any person I heard using it and it would make me judge them as snobs frankly

LOL, what about people using it to describe their OWN jobs?

it's not a description of a person, its a description of a role.

Menial work = physical: stacking shelves, mopping floors etc.
It involves little or no mental work, you just go through the physical motions and get the job done
As opposed to mentally challenging jobs.

Some people have a mentally challenging job AND a menial job as a second job - where's the snobbery there exactly?

YANBU menial is pejorative and is intended to be so. She is absolutely looking down on men doing manual work, and comes across as a snob. Though it is true it's quite hard to find a value-neutral or positive term for it - unskilled? blue-collar? non-professional?

How much status and salary are attached to a job and whether they are deserved are interesting questions. A surgeon is an extreme example, because their work requires talent, long training, ability to cope with stress, and is very obviously useful. But there are plenty of jobs that are highly paid and high status where this is not true - e.g. banker etc.

How replaceable they are also seems like a factor, as people suggested above - even if a particular surgeon could not do the cleaner's job (which I doubt, actually), there are far more people who can clean than can do surgery. So supply / demand would seem to be at play. But then again, there are niche jobs that depend on a particular, rare ability that are not well paid - contortionist, for instance .

But none of this detracts from the basic fact that your friend was rude.

Also, some skills are undervalued by society. And these are often skills that involve emotional intelligence and other abilities that are not learnt in the academic system and for which you don't get degree certificates.

High intelligence isn't enough

Enough for what? Maybe not enough to ensure personal fulfilment. But enough to get a job requiring specialised skills. In which most people would indeed include doctors, whatever your father reckons

I think you'll find it takes more than intelligence to make a good doctor. And an exceptionally high IQ is definitely not required for medicine. Above average intelligence is most definitely required, but beyond that, your IQ is fairly irrelevant, except to help filter out an excess of candidates who might have made perfectly good doctors, as high IQ doesn't help you deal with stress, or make you empathetic, or give you a strong stomach, or patience, or a good bedside manner, or manual dexterity, or the ability to cope with fatigue, or an ability to be decisive and reassuring.

Absolutely, but without top grades you're not getting into medical school in the first place. You could argue that plenty of people have empathy and a strong stomach etc but do not have the ability absorb and apply the volume of information taught at medical school.

Anyway, practising medicine is just being used as an example on this thread. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is the ultimate test of intelligence.

"60sname

High intelligence isn't enough

Enough for what? Maybe not enough to ensure personal fulfilment. But enough to get a job requiring specialised skills. In which most people would indeed include doctors, whatever your father reckons"

Quite. No UK educated doctor would gain entrance to med school without a particularly impressive clutch of grades and without undergoing a rigorous selection process. Academic excellence is not always enough but it is certainly essential and expected.
Doctors are, by any definition, intelligent or clever or academic or "bright". The word you choose to describe their level of ability is entirely up to you.

The top grades requirement has more to do with filtering through the applications than with the necessity to have got top grades to actually have the ability to absorb and apply the information required. When my diss applied for medical school, she only needed BBC at A-level, not the top grades.

manual job does not equal menial job

For example, construction work is manual, but is very often complex and not at all menial.

Putting 2x salt and vinegar crisp packets into a multi pack in a factory, is menial.

Correction:
No UK educated, would-be doctor...

I actually worked in a crisp packing factory on my gap year... used to pretend I. Was. A . Ro.Bot. Do.Ing.My.Job.

Not allowed to talk. Not allowed to listen to music. Just pack the crisps...