for thinking this is demeaning?

[baconandeggies]

The word 'menial', as in "He has a menial job"

It seems a bit loaded to me... Implies it's "less important" and can be looked down upon. Surely it comes from the same root as demeaning anyway?

There's nothing wrong with having a more 'manual' job..

Reminds me that a flatmate once exclaimed "I'd never marry a man who had a menial job, like a dustbin man, or a cleaner or something"

Why not just say 'manual' job, if you must describe it as anything other than the actual job title.

So does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?

YABU -menial and manual don't mean the same thing.

Whatever words your friend used, I would be judging her for thinking she was a bit up herself.

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;

A menial job is one lacking prestige or skill. That describes the job, not the person.

A bigger problem is the fact that so many people are defined by their job. One of the first questions you ask when you meet someone is 'what do you do for a job?' as if that encapsulates everything about them.

My friends husband is a bin man.

His MIL is reportedly so embarrassed by his menial job that she never mentions it.

But he has a pretty sweet life. We all envy him. His work life balance is amazing. He starts early and is home by afternoon! And zero stress! His relationship with his kids is fantastic cos he's around so much when they get home from school and he's always chilled out.

Equally important though Flogging, and a surgeon has no right to look down on a rubbish collector, or no?

theoritician if someone described someone else's job as 'menial', I would take it as they thought that job was beneath them and not worthy of any respect.

Depending on how it was said you might or might not be right, but so what if you are? That is not the only possible way to use the word menial. An example of a derogatory use is not proof that there are no non-derogatory uses.

For example: "After completing his Phd in Physics, the hoped for teaching position failed to materialise, and for a couple of years he was forced to support himself with a variety of menial jobs, before joining the Max Planck institute, where he began the work that was to lead to his Nobel prize."

Nothing wrong with that. It is saying that the jobs were shit and (in this case) beneath the person who did them, but that's just a statement of fact. It does not insult anyone.

Or how about an example where the job is not beneath the person:-

"How did you pay your way through university?"
"Oh, various menial jobs, never managed to earn more than minimum wage."

bacon It is reasonable although unrealistic to expect people not to openly judge the occupation of others but I think you're on a hiding to nothing if you expect them not to do it privately.

Equally, to recognise that some jobs require vastly more training and knowledge than others is a statement of fact, not a slur on the lower-skilled person

Accepting that you're more skilled / qualified / talented than someone else doesn't have to have any element of "looking down" on the other
You've got a real chip on your shoulder about this, op...
A surgeon is not a better person than a rubbish collector, but the position is more highly regarded (and paid accordingly). Unsurprisingly.
Anyway, it's not like professions are handed out at birth, is it?
Nobody has to sweep the streets if they're embarrassed by it; we all have free will to make our own choices.

needsahalo I believe it is a case of the exception proving the rule

Some jobs are better than others. On a recent thread someone mentioned a date who told her he worked in a bank. It later turned out he was a cleaner there. No-one on that thread thought that was an unimportant omission.

No, a surgeon shouldn't look down on a binman. But you're having a laugh if you think that a to be a surgeon doesn't require a hell of a lot more skill than being a bin man. It takes years to qualify as a surgeon. And not equally important either, no.

And no, they are not "equally important" at all. A surgeon could, if necessary, turn their hand to road sweeping. The same cannot be said in reverse. So while the relative people holding those positions are both worthy individuals in their own right, the jobs they do are absolutely not of equal value.

No chips... Obvs a surgeon vs a carer or bin man has a different skill set, but it doesn't sound right to me that any job should have a value-judgement attached. Hey ho.

op if someone is a binman because they want to be, then why would they care what anyone else thinks?

My friends husband is a bin man. His MIL is reportedly so embarrassed by his menial job that she never mentions it. But he has a pretty sweet life. We all envy him. His work life balance is amazing.

They're usually very fit. They have to be because of the physical aspect of the job.
You rarely see a fat binman.

Today I did some cleaning, took the rubbish out and wiped a small child's bottom. None of these 'skills' required any prior instruction or training. If I'd been asked to remove someone's appendix I'd have been a bit stuck

You don't think a surgeon's role should have a high value attached to it? Well, let's hope you never have to depend on one saving your life, eh?
It's worth noting that countries where teaching is extremely highly valued, such as Finland, have far greater success in educating their children. Damn those value judgements.

it depends on you as a person, I would want to be with someone who is career minded, ambitions and willing to succeed professionally and personally, if that means your match is a NMW employee or a magnate business industrialist then so be it. However this goes for all other relationship compatibility.

Personally I would find a person who does not match my ambitions in life then they are not the match for me, I would want a partner to match my interests be that visiting expensive countries or a week in a tent.

Where have I said anyone shouldn't be valued for what they do? All I've noted is imo there's no benefit to labelling any job as 'menial'. That's literally all I'm saying. All professions involve a skill, and worth.

River any role in life has a level of education and skill attached to it, no matter what role it's is, that does not equate to the thinking that a surgeon or a cleaner, makes you higher or lesser in a human being due to the tole we do in the world!

We are all equal and ALL of us are expendable, no matter what skill set we hold!

Well, what you actually said was if someone takes pride in their work and enjoys it, why shouldn't they object if other people describe it as low -skilled
Which is just nonsense really... Enjoying doing something has no correlation with the skills needed to do it. You could have a sense of pride in your work standing behind the counter in McDonalds, but it's still low-skilled work with very little (or any) prestige attached.
Doing it doesn't demean you as a person, but expecting it to be as highly valued as a career that requires long and intensive training makes you sound like a 16 year old who wants to do a NMW job because it's less hassle but also wants respect.

Well that's the definition of the word, so no, YANBU. And on the subject of equal but different,
I always think people who clean public toilets have a really important job..

You could have a sense of pride in your work standing behind the counter in McDonalds, but it's still low-skilled work with very little (or any) prestige attached.

I think my problem is with anyone who decides to pass comment on the difference in skill-sets.

I guess I got to thinking about this from the CV thread, where someone said that you only have to do a basic list of your qualifications and experience if we're going for a 'menial' job.

And I still think this sentence for example would be demeaning if I was a proud McDonald's employee:-

"Oh don't worry to much about your CV for McDonald's... It's just a menial job"

i.e, why comment on how supposedly crap or non-prestigious a job is at all? I see no reason for the word to exist

A menial job is one where in many instances you don't have to train for , be qualified. You can't compare the skill set of a brain surgeon and cleaner, that's daft. Even my cleaner would agree that. That's why the pay scales are different, and not just anyone can simply walk into a theatre and open your skull up and operate on your brain,

I don't understand why you are so offended. I personally don't use the term, but I do recognise there is skilled and unskilled roles.

And to say one is not "better " than another, is also silly. You need to define better, yes one is paid better than the other, but is one better than the other in terms of job enjoyment, satisfaction, mentally challenging, rewards?

bacon at 19.50 you said that no 'job should have a value judgement attached to it'. Your words.

Jamie if a job requires years of training then that job makes you are more skilled person for having done that training. Not better, but yes, more skilled and less menial.