for thinking this is demeaning?

[baconandeggies]

The word 'menial', as in "He has a menial job"

It seems a bit loaded to me... Implies it's "less important" and can be looked down upon. Surely it comes from the same root as demeaning anyway?

There's nothing wrong with having a more 'manual' job..

Reminds me that a flatmate once exclaimed "I'd never marry a man who had a menial job, like a dustbin man, or a cleaner or something"

Why not just say 'manual' job, if you must describe it as anything other than the actual job title.

So does describing someone's job as 'menial' sound judgey, or AIBU?

Nobody is actually looking down on anybody else, Sabine. Just taking issue with the op's assertion that in absolute terms, a surgeon's input is of no more value than that of the person who swabs out the floor.
Because it's patent nonsense.

If the two met in a bar, however, they'd be there on an equal footing; with neither one "better" than the other.
At work, though? No.

I have held menial jobs, they were great fitted in with my work life balance brilliantly, repeatative so easy to do, when I finished work I left my work there and had nothing to do once I went home. But they bored me to tears, I wasn't reaching my potential and didn't engage my brain and there was no real level of progression.

Nowadays you find many people who are overqualified carrying out job roles that are menial to them because they benefit them in some other way.

Jobs that require more skills (qualifications) often come with more responsibility for working on your own initiative and perhaps supervisory or managerial roles. They require more dedication from the employee in additional training and work outside of office hours.

Professional jobs, Doctors, lawyers, teachers etc are seen as more prestigious as through history only the well educated could do these, whilst with better access to Higher Education these jobs are open to a greater range of people they still require, time, money and a good standard of education to achieve.

To paint all jobs as the same would be like saying All jobs are equal, just some are more equal than others.

An "expert in your field", OP? What sort of higher education qualifications enabled you to get to this level?

So what is the field that you're now an expert in, op?

There is an answer to that.

But I will refrain.

Ah, g'wan Alexa

An "expert in your field", OP? What sort of higher education qualifications enabled you to get to this level?

Why do you ask?

"baconandeggies

An "expert in your field", OP? What sort of higher education qualifications enabled you to get to this level?

Why do you ask?"

Because I am interested. Are you able to enlighten me?

one role isn't objectively better than another,

of course it is!! that was my point . on any objective view, a doctor is a better job than a courier.

do you actually understand what the word 'objective' means? doesn't sound like it!!!

To clarify my thinking..

All roles have value and all roles are important in their own way. Of course different skill-sets are involved. I think there's no benefit in looking down on any particular job. To me, the word 'menial' is negative and sounds as if the job is being looked down upon.

Are you able to enlighten me?

1 x BSc degree
2 x HE dip

Why are you interested?

All roles are important in their own way. Yes, absolutely. They're not all equally important though, that's a different concept altogether. And one you seem to be having trouble grasping.

What is your field, op?

Well, it's certainly absolute bollocks that anyone could do menial work to a good standard. For all the skill of the surgeon, the incompetent cleaner or carer, or even admin assistant who loses your patient records, could easily be the death of you... and certainly be responsible for destroying your dignity and cause great suffering as you die... Well performed menial work is more important to our overall survival than a brain surgeon's work, which is likely to be utterly pointless to the vast majority of us. In my opinion, a huge number of people are deeply unsuited to menial work, because they would be hopeless at it. Personally, I think the patience, attention to detail, stamina, strength, empathy, ability to cope with repetitive work, etc, that a lot of supposedly "menial" jobs require are abilities which few people possess.

a doctor is a better job than a courier.

It depends on how the person defines 'better'. A health professional who is stressed, burnt out and sick of the NHS may well consider that being a courier is better in many ways.

I know of many nurses who have left the profession to do what others may describe as "less prestigious" roles, because these were 'better' for them.

So why claim they're all equal?

This is a totally ludicrous AIBU, maybe the most ridiculous I have ever read. There is nothing wrong with having a menial job, be it dustbin man, cleaner, care worker or anything else. However, it is nuts to say that the cleaner in an operating theatre and the surgeon performing surgery are equal in terms of their input.

The cleaner is doing a very necessary job and nobody disputes that. It is important for operating theatres to be completely sterile. The surgeon is doing a job that most people simply cannot reach the required skill level or academic level to perform. S/he has trained for years at high personal monetary cost to themselves. S/he was accepted to train based on reaching an academic level that most people simply cannot reach regardless of effort. S/he has devoted years to learning to do their job to an amazingly high level. S/he has skills from this training that are not replicable without undergoing the same training. Hence, the surgeon is paid a lot more than the cleaner. If the surgeon and the cleaner both resign tomorrow, it is far easier to replace the cleaner (who just has to understand a relatively simple set of instructions about what to clean and how, which nearly everyone who is NT can understand) than the surgeon (who needs to understand how the entire human body works to a very high level, which nearly everyone who is NT cannot understand).

Because of this, although both jobs are valuable and necessary, the surgeon's job is of higher value than the cleaner's.

That doesn't mean anyone is looking down on the cleaner for being a cleaner. It means people are valuing the extensive professional training and brainpower of the surgeon. Which they should, because honestly those people are amazing.

Equal in terms of being necessary for achieving the ultimate goal - so a doctor respects the role of the nurse, the cleaner respects the role of the surgeon, the anaesthetist respects the role of the carer, etc.

Well, they do, so I am not sure what you are so worried about.

honestly those people are amazing.

I agree! I just think there's little benefit is using the word 'menial'. That's literally all my AIBU was about.

Sigh... I'll get me coat...

• in

However, the doctor is well aware that there are more people capable of being nurses than doctors. The cleaner is well aware that there are more people capable of being cleaners than surgeons. The anaesthetist knows perfectly well that there are more people capable of being carers than anaesthetists. And the carers, nurses and cleaners are perfectly aware that there are fewer people able to do the jobs of doctor, surgeon or anaesthetist than their own jobs. Because of this, the roles of doctor anaesthetist or surgeon are more highly valued.

I don't see what is wrong with the word menial. It's a description. It's not supposed to be beneficial to anyone. It's just a fact. A cleaner has a menial job. A surgeon does not. They are both capable of doing the best they can and being respected for that.

But a surgeon knows it wouldn't be polite to say:

"A nurse is a more menial position than mine"

Because the word has negative connotations. Whereas he might instead say:

"A nurse requires different and less intense training"

or similar, which would be fine.