Confused about attitudes to prams on buses

[5FeetOfWater]

I know this can be a sensitive topic but I'd like some honest opinions.

I get the bus twice a day with 15-month-old. I usually park buggy in the space where the fold-down seats are (not the wheelchair space opposite, I know wheelchair users have priority and if I used this space I'd always give it up if someone needed it).

There are often 2 or 3 prams on the bus, sometimes 4. And almost every day I hear people complaining 'in my day we used to walk from - to - with the prams' (approx 45-min walk) 'look at all those prams, we never took our prams on the bus' 'why don't they fold their prams' etc.
I could understand this attitude if bus was crowded but it's generally half empty so the prams aren't in the way.
Yet people still sit on the fold-down seats when they can see prams are getting on. Yesterday I politely said
'Excuse me please, I need to put my buggy here' (at least 8 other seats free)
Lady moved to a seat 1m away with much muttering and glaring.

I always give up my seat if needed and avoid the priority seats as I'm aware people with walking aids and shopping trolleys need the extra space. But on some buses the fold-up seats have a sign above saying 'please give up this space to parents with prams and pushchairs'. There are 4 priority seats behind this area with space for walking aids.

I know I could fold, but it's safer to have DD strapped in. She's only just walking and I'd struggle to hold her and carry folded pushchair and nursery bags/shopping/my work bags. I often see mums with a toddler and a baby in pram really struggling to fit pram it because no-one wants to move.

AIBU??

The thing is when I was buying a pram the advice was that you needed one that lies flat for a newborn. Stick folds are for older children. I now have both, but tbh it's no easier to fold the MacLaren. If anything it's worse as it tips up if you take the baby out and our bus swerves like the knightbus in harry potter so it's quite terrifying trying to get yto a seat holding a baby and all your stuff. Of course I'll fold it if necessary but not just in case

Umbrella buggys are often suited from new born. I have an umbrella single and a tandem double. The double won't fold well it will but one of the seats have to be taken of first. That's why I do the sling. It's win win for me.

I love the sling too. I still use it with my 18 month old, but it's not suitable for every journey, especially if you have other stuff to carry.

bruffin I always used mcclaren buggies and had no problems with them. The only thing you're not supposed to do is hang shopping bags off the handles.
Generally speaking, it is hard to use buses with a lot of shopping bags, but I find that equally true without a buggy.
Used them all the time on buses, and the horrible slam door trains that used to run in my area. I even had to carry them and down stairs with the baby in it (no lifts or escalators at my station).
The poster who said that people used to be more helpful was right, IMO, but that went all ways. More helpful to elderly and disabled people as well.

To be fair everyone is always very helpful to me at the station (no lifts there either). I can carry the buggy with the baby in it but hardly ever have to as someone always offers to help. I much prefer that to the bus tbh.

The thought of folding down my buggy and holding my wriggly 9 month old plus his bag... nah I'd rather be a hermit

I dislike the negative attitude that people with prams get. I had ventured out a few times with my buggy but always outside of rush hour, until my husband got sick and ended up in a hospital in the middle of London. Had to bring his stuff to him plus baby (with buggy) and it unfortunately was rush hour by the time I collected everything and reached the bus (I got a train in, where a person in a wheelchair came to that space long after me but I left them to have the space and squeezed in by the door on another carriage). The pushing and tuts weren't very nice.

No-one's father owns the buses! Yes bulkier buggies take up space, but all are entitled to use the service. Etiquette is discretionary...

where a person in a wheelchair came to that space long after me but I left them to have the space and squeezed in by the door on another carriage

As you are legally obliged to. There is no medal for this - it's basic humanity.

The OP sounds considerate and sensible and doesn't deserve to get any grief. Unfortunately a great deal of buggy on public transport users are not, and it's their attitude that has probably resulted in people being generally less tolerant of prams and buggies on their routes.

Too many people taking ridiculously large baby carrying vehicles onto buses that aren't designed for them and causing obstruction to other people. Babies are very small, they really don't need huge chariots that take the same amount of space as two or three people.

My children are only teenagers but when they were small there were very few pushchair accessible buses so I did have to use a sling plus a umbrella fold pushchair when they were small, and no it wasn't easy but it wasn't impossible.

It's great that the huge battle disability campaigners fought for accessibility also benefited new parents, but I do think that some parents take it for granted that they can now take an unfolded pushchair onto the bus and do not think about the potential impact on other users.

Some people really just seem to hate parents and kids. The buggy space is there for buggys. As for those asking about more than one buggy waiting, well generally the first person there gets the space and the other folds or waits. Having said that, I have folded before when the other parent has a very young baby..or if they appear to be struggling a lot.

At the same time, I suffer chronic pain issues and its often not possible for me to hold my child. And why...if the space is available anyway? Why do some (usually older) people begrudge anything that makes parents lives that little bit easier?

Custard Did I ask for a medal? To recount things as they were is not a plea for sympathy. It's there so people know I actually support people in wheelchairs having access to that space, excuse me for not spelling it out.

Also, why shouldn't a person feel upset at waiting for a space and then another person (who is more entitled to it, I am not arguing against that) does come along? Disappointment is human too, no? Or would you jump on MN to accuse that person of inhumanity? Settle yourself.

My eldest is almost 13 and the old stair buses were still in service here when he was a baby. Was a nightmare.

In the OP's situation though it's not even using the wheelchair space, it's the fold seats opposite which I think is the most practical layout to enable both wheelchair users and buggy users at the same time.

The only reason I can think of is if the folding seats are the priority seats too and priority seat users were unable to access them due to too many buggies?

But I do think regular public transport users should have easy fold buggies. Obvious if you don't always use public transport you might not have one but if you know you're going to use transport a lot you should think practically.

It's quite clear that many people think it's entitled to even think about using a buggy on public transport, public transport should be welcome for all and I don't really want to be shitting myself every time I want to get the 334 into town. Going out as a new mum particularly can be very nerve wracking and attitudes like some here really don't help things.

I have never seen a bis where the folding seats were also priority. What we have here, that seems to work well is

Very small luggage area (pretty useless the size of it really...)
Wheelchair space
Buggy space that also has 4 folding seats for if no buggy is there.

4 priority seats
Rest of seats

I often get hassle for sitting in the priority seats on my way to hospital appointments as some people seem to think they are for older people, not ill people and my illness is fairly invisible (though I imagine you can still tell I am in a lot of pain, though I try to mask it). Have had a fair few older people going down my neck about 'entitled' young people these days. Sometimes I will force myself to move even though I know I don't need to, just to avoid a scene. On two occasions I have stood up for myself. Once went fin e, the person apologized once I explained. Other time she kept screaming at me that she was older than me and I am a lazy bitch and age beats pain. That was fun...in hindsight I wish I had shut her down but I was in so much pain I burst into tears instead..and was accused of 'sympathy seeking' :S

WankingMonkey That's awful

it is quite clear that some people think it's entitled to even think about using a buggy on public transport.

I agree and it really frustrates me. I think it's far more entitled to get in a car and clog up the roads and our children's lungs for a journey that could be made by bus, but you never get threads about that.

So what if things were different years ago? I have no idea what bus use was like then but the fact is that now people often have a choice about how to travel and we want people to use public transport as much as possible.

The only time it's entitled is if the buggy user is acting in an entitled way.

Yes, which doesn't include failing to fold it down unless someone needs the space for a wheelchair. If someone else with a buggy gets the general etiquette round here is first come first served and the next person folds or waits but it'd be the kind thing to do to fold if it looks like you'd have the easier time doing so.

I have seen lots of entitled mums with buggys. Not loads but enough for me to think fuck it is won't use the space at all. You have the ones that will use the space for an empty pram and will refuse to fold it. I have seen mums put their pushchair length ways so it takes up more space and when asked can you put your pushchair side ways. So I can get my buggy in they reply no. I really hope it happens to them!!! I really don't understand why people are like it. Bloody horrible.

Due to other posts on here I'm going to prefix this with I'm not trying to make this all about disability.

But I have had buggy users refuse to fold for me in my wheelchair. Numerous times. Including one buggy which contained a little girl's doll, not a baby in sight.

This does colour my attitude towards buggy users.

However this thread isn't about that. I wish more buses were laid out as in the OP though, would make my life easier.

I used to walk everywhere and I'm not that old (DC are teens) and if I had to get a bus I would fold the pram/buggy. Even if the bus is empty, you don't know how many will get on at other stops. It can be tricky folding the pram with a baby in arms and bags etc but I found people only too willing to help or hold the baby.

If all buggy users started folding on every single bus no matter how much space there was, there'd be endless complaining about these entitled mothers holding up the bus and blocking the aisle while they faff around folding the buggy. Your "people were happy to help hold the baby!" is someone else's "and then she actually expected total strangers to hold the baby for her, the selfish cow!"

This seems to be one of those things that is only an issue on Mumsnet. I use London buses with my buggy all the time and have never encountered any problems of this kind. It's simple: if there's a wheelchair or two buggies on the bus already, don't get on; if a wheelchair user wants to get on, then you get off (I'm aware there are some arseholes who don't do this but that doesn't seem to be what this thread is about). If the space is available, why on earth should you have to fold the buggy? I often go shopping with 14m old DD in the buggy and we get the bus back. I can't fold the buggy up with heavy shopping in the basket and in the nappy bag attached to the handles - never mind the fact that DD is extremely wriggly and would be a liability if not strapped in. If the space is available (and I do mean if), there is nothing wrong with leaving a buggy unfolded. It really isn't an issue in in real life.

Dd1 is now 5 and I'm due ds any day now. I'm quite a confident person but the idea of using the bus used to bring me out in a cold sweat- would I be able get on, would I be on time etc. I live in a smallish town but the traffic can mean a 5mile trip easily takes an hour just to visit my Mum. At that point I didn't drive. I tried to walk everywhere and despite using a sling & having a McLaren using the bus was sooo stressful. Even if you fold our local buses do not have luggage racks or if they do they're not bigger than the size of a small shopping bag. The stress of carrying a very heavy dd, bag with all our stuff for day (who goes out with just a couple of nappies? I had a full packed lunch for both us, changes of clothes, toys etc.if I was out for the day!) plus the v heavy umbrella stroller all with no help. Even with dd in the sling the number of times her head got bashed into the seat in front whilst on my lap as the bus lurched to a stop. I'd only ever get the bus when I knew it was the beginning of the route so I was pretty much guaranteed a place (wheelchair users excepted) and would often walk hours home to avoid the stress of trying to get on a packed bus. Bus fair round our way is so expensive I'd have been livid to be kicked off a bus too with having to argue my way back onto the next one without paying additional payment. I'm lucky enough to be driving now as the expense for both dd and myself to use the bus was too much.

I think it's really sad that so many new mums avoided buses or found the experience an ordeal. Public transport is supposed to be accessible to everyone.

I had PND and severe anxiety when DD was born. I was lucky enough to live within walking distance of a children's centre that ran classes, baby groups, breastfeeding cafe etc so didn't need to take the bus much in the early days. But I feel really sorry for new mums who need to use the bus to access services and are deterred by others' hostility. Getting out and about is so important when you have a baby.

As for umbrella buggies, they don't look very comfortable or good for rough ground. I chose a sturdy buggy with big wheels, that gives a smooth ride, doesn't tip easily, and can attach car seat. It's also comfortable to push and steer. It's compact and foldable but size wasn't my top priority when choosing it.