To start a campaign to prevent clinics from offering "gender scans"

[NNChangeAgain]

I've been following the trans debate, both here and in RL and it strikes me that most of the disagreement and arguments stem from the language and words used.

One of the biggest misunderstandings is the way in which the word "gender" has become interchangable with the word "sex". And no one is more guilty of that than the clinics which offer "gender scans" during pregnancy.

They are not gender scans though, are they? They are scans to determine the external sexual organs of the foetus. Even a foetal blood test identifies the genetic sex of the baby, not the gender.

Is this misrepresentation? Telling a pregnant woman the "gender" of the baby they are carrying is impossible - surely it should stop? And just maybe, it would begin to resolve some of the conflict over the trans debate at the same time ?

maid I would be you if I was in your job. I am doing exactly that, and getting the same reputation, in my own line of work.

I'm not sure that the vast majority of people really care about the difference on a day to day basis.

That's the problem, isn't it? No one cares, until they are faced with a situation in which their DC, or a friend, or child in their DCs class, identifies as transgender. And then all hell breaks loose because one person will say that person is "changing sex", another will say "no, they can't change sex" and the first will call the second a trans-phobe, friendships be be lost, hurtful things said - when in fact, they are using the same word in different ways.

Cheerybigbottom, yes, my question too. Only I don't think that the name change will actually help as the problem is not with the name but with the fact of categorisation. You can call your son "child with a penis", but the words "child with a penis" will simply come to replace the word "male" or "son" - they will sound differently but have exactly the same connotations. Hence there will still be blue "child with a penis" and pink "child with a vagia" clothing sections in Next.

I don't understand what the alternative to male and female babies would be

Male and female are descriptions of biological sex, not gender.

Agree. Nothing wrong with "Baby is male, congratulations" or "Baby is female (we think, there's a small chance we're wrong about this), congratulations".

I have just sent a text to BIL who is a TSO. He will be delighted to receive an email regarding "gender" clinics. not really

Well, whether you believe that being transgender is actually a thing (or not), it's undeniable that there is a strong correlation between sex and gender, most people aren't trans after all.
So, calling it gender scan may be wrong (depending on what one believes in) but it is in most cases accurate. So...?

I don't think the issue is with saying 'male' or 'female' or calling a child he or she.

The problem is that gender and sex are not the same thing. Sex is to do with your genitals. If you have a penis then you are male, if you have a vagina then you are female.

Gender is not to do with your anatomy. You cannot see 'gender' on a scan.

Seriously?

But if there weren't gender scans OP, how would we have known if we should buy blue dungarees and dinosaur toys or pink dresses and Barbie dolls?

More seriously, I think the point you're missing is that most people in the world don't care about non-binary pronouns, gender vs sex and the rest of that PC nonsense. That doesn't mean they harbour a single prejudice, it means it doesn't affect them and therefore they don't care. I don't know anyone who isn't a simple man / woman. If I did I know I'd feel no ill will towards them because of it in the same way I don't care about sexuality, race and any other difference that makes life a little more interesting.

Language is constantly evolving and a current issue is that SJWs are foisting these changes upon us as opposed to it happening organically as it has done for millennia.

Most people don't know what the "trans debate" even is (me included). I assume it's something to do with who was better, Lily Savage or Paul O' Grady. I, because I'm progressive and cool, think it was Lily.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe
gender vs sex is something that impacts my life constantly

The rest of my post was pretty flippant but being sensible, why does it impact your life so much?

I believe there are male and female brains, personality traits and pros and cons to each. I think hetrosexuality is typical, gender isn't a social construct and many other conservative views. None of this means that being a-typical means you're a lesser person. I'm bi-polar and think that a-typical people have less 'swing' than I do, not that they're better or worse than me, simply that we're different. My gay brother would attest to the fact I don't care about his gayness / straightness.

Surely the problem you have isn't whether the average person knows or cares about gender or sex but if they accept your child for their strengths. They may be 'unusual' but that isn't the problem.

gunting, would it not be more productive to focus on the fact that social constructions of gender are meaningless and harmful than on how a few people who go for gender scans in private clinics may or may not interpret the words on the said clinics sales prospectus?

Autumn well yes, I think I said almost that in my first post.

How does this cause issue in the trans debate op?

How does this cause issue in the trans debate op?

Conflation of sex vs gender means that safe female (sex) spaces, become open to anybody who identifies as female (gender) spaces.

How does this cause issue in the trans debate op?

I completely inadvertently offended a colleague who works in the LGBTQ+ sector by saying that "of course people can't change sex".
Fortunately, she was open to conversation despite her offence, but my explanation that sex and gender are different and one is biological was met with the comment "well, that's all very technical, I don't really understand it".

The amount of vitriol and hatred that exists between people with different perspectives on the trans debate is almost always down to miscommunication.

It may very well be a sex scan rather than a gender scan.

I would estimate that about, oh, 99% of people do not give a tiny fuck that it's not technically the right word.

Itsallgoingtobefine.
In discussion with many trans activists though they directly say gender and sex are the same now. That if a man has a penis and but sees himself as a woman then that penis is a female body part.
It's completely insane. they are fully aware of the real differences between sex and gender but newer trans activism now says this doesn't exist. They usually use intersex people to justify this and start saying is an infertile woman not a female.

I don't believe it is down to miscommunication at all op.
Trans activists are deliberately merging the 2 words as this gives them greater power to say they deserve to be in the single sex safe spaces.

😂

Good job you name changed OP.

Trans activists are deliberately merging the 2 words as this gives them greater power to say they deserve to be in the single sex safe spaces.

All the more reason for society as a whole to ensure they use appropriate words, so as not to fuel dispute, surely?

I also disagree that the vitriol stems from a simple misunderstanding of sex and gender.

I also think you are very wrong to assume that there are clear-cut and universally accepted/scientifically proven definitions of "sex" and "gender" that differentiate them with absolute clarity. I think you are wrong to assume that there can be an objective definition of anything in discussion of the social. Everything is socially constructed, including how we understand genitals and chromosome combinations.

summer Sorry, I don't get you - do you think I'm sock puppeting? I've not name changed recently

I think it's always worth highlighting the difference between gender (masculine/feminine) and sex (male/female) because young people (though not all and not only) are now spouting all kinds of gibberish coming from not realising that gender us not the same as sex.

How often do we see in MN 'guess the gender' threads. What, you want us to guess if your baby is masculine or feminine?

But surely it is the case that when a sex is determined at a scan, for 99.999% of people, that will correspond with their gender.

So for the very very vast majority of people, they are to all intents and purposes the same thing.

Everything is socially constructed, including how we understand genitals and chromosome combinations

Good point - biology is socially constructed too. Everything is. Just because only people with XX chromosomes are recorded as conceiving and giving birth doesn't mean a person with XY isn't equally capable of doing so