To start a campaign to prevent clinics from offering "gender scans"

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I've been following the trans debate, both here and in RL and it strikes me that most of the disagreement and arguments stem from the language and words used.

One of the biggest misunderstandings is the way in which the word "gender" has become interchangable with the word "sex". And no one is more guilty of that than the clinics which offer "gender scans" during pregnancy.

They are not gender scans though, are they? They are scans to determine the external sexual organs of the foetus. Even a foetal blood test identifies the genetic sex of the baby, not the gender.

Is this misrepresentation? Telling a pregnant woman the "gender" of the baby they are carrying is impossible - surely it should stop? And just maybe, it would begin to resolve some of the conflict over the trans debate at the same time ?

I mean that's what the clinic called it
And I think this is what the OP wishes to address - the early and biologically irrelevant use of "gender" instead of "sex".

You didn't have a gender scan but the clinic called it that. It's quite insidious.

OP, I would support the renaming of "gender scans" to "sex scans". Anything that cuts out the gender brainwashing.

So what would you want them to say?

It's the casual miscue of language. Clinics advertise "gender scans" - and have done for so long that society now associates the word gender with the biological sex. And that's what causing a lot of misunderstandings in the trans debate.

Good idea in my view and makes clearer that you are determining the sexual organs rather than how that child may identify once born

Although I think the thread title is a little misleading - I thought it was going to be about the ethics of determining a baby's sex before it's born, in terms of choice to continue with pregnancy.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9028479/Couple-raise-child-as-gender-neutral-to-avoid-stereotyping.html

We need more parents like this. Where a penis and vagina/vulva is seen just as a leg or arm.

Yes, because that's what's on every pregnant couple's mind, how the child might identify in many year's time.

Nothing to do with buying a few dresses in Newborn size or wanting to tell the siblings whether they will have a brother or sister.....

YABU

I never felt the need to find out the sex/gender of my babies before birth so that I could buy everything in pink or blue in advance (I know there are plenty of other, more significant reasons for people to find out). Products aimed at babies and young children are too heavily gendered so that DD1's pink baby walker will be replaced by a blue one for DS2 for maximum profits. There is massive scope to return to more neutral products and clothing.

As a society, we are too invested in x is for girls and y is for boys (or should that be xx and xy )

But putting bans on finding out the sex of a baby before birth would only defer such activity for a few months. Scans for this reason are banned in China to reduce the abortion rate of females to correct the imbalanced sex ratio, but people still find out, and the behaviour doesn't change. DS2 was happy to reveal all at his scan, and I was told to look away if I wanted to keep a surprise as he was being that blatant.

So a ban would be pointless and ineffective, and penalise people who want to find out for medical or dealing with trauma type reasons.

I can see where you're coming from but getting scan places to change the terminology isn't going to reverse years of misconstrued thinking.

What annoys me more is the 'pink or blue bump' brigade but I'm not going to start a petition about it.

I think probably the reason the clinics probably call them 'gender scans' is that 'sex scan' would probably bring up some rather interesting search results on Google. Ahem.

Seriously I get your point but I think you are being a tad ridiculous. Do you want sonographers to start saying 'congratulations, your baby has a penis / vagina' as well when they do the scans so as not to get into the issue of what is a boy / girl.

I think OP has it about right.

Sex is male/female, gender is a cultural construct we place on people.

'Gender' scan is incorrect.

I always think it's unfortunate that the word sex is used both to describe intercourse and genital type, as the connotations of the former discourages some people from using it for the latter.

I just think people aren't always that happy using the words 'sex' and 'baby' casually in the same sentence.

Well from some posts here it seems worth improving awareness about the difference between sex (unchangeable biological identification) and gender (society's expectations of people of that sex).

Oh sorry, I thought OP was only referring to the terminology.

It should be called a 'sex scan' because gender is incorrect. I don't know about banning them; I do know that many hospitals won't inform parents of the sexon their baby due to the likelihood of female foetuses being aborted.

Where I went for mine it was called a 'sexing scan' anyway so not all places have it wrong.

This has got to be a joke...

I agree with Sparklingbrook

I get you OP. Sex vs gender is a pet peeve of mine!

For those who don't understand:

Sex = biologically determined. Ie. Penis or vaginally. Male or female. Boy or girl. XY other XX.

Gender = a social construct. Ie. Masculinity or femininity. Blue for boys and pink for girls. Stereotyping of certain careers, hobbies and other pursuits as for certain sexes. Saying something is ladylike or unladylike.

I was once asked to redesign some forms at work and changed 'gender' to 'sex'. I got told off and told some people would find it offensive even though I pointed out it was biological fact and if we're asking gender then we may get skewed answers from people who identify as other genders to that which they present physiologically. They couldn't understand and said what I was saying was irrelevant because if someone has a penis then they are masculine. I asked what about an effeminate gay man and was told they are still masculine because penis. No understanding of the concept whatsoever.

I eventually got around it by putting the question on the forms as "Are you? Male/Female (circle one)"

For this reason, I think your campaign wouldn't work. Too many people don't understand, or will take offence, or will just think people will take offence. I support you in educating people on language though, and that gender =/= sex.

Are you saying that you think they should be renamed as sex scans and so they can still determine the sex of the baby?

Or are you saying that clinics should stop offering these scans at all and we shouldn't be able to find out the sex of the baby.

*vagina stupid autocorrect!

OMG! Really? get a life OP!

I've never heard it called that (never had kids so no first hand experience). But I've always just asked about finding out the sex of the baby.

The use of gender when they mean sex also annoys me. It is a sex scan not a gender scan so I do agree with your premise.

Gender is a social construct that causes more problems than it solves.

So YANBU

It's because they can't say 'sex scans'.

yabu and to add to it xx girl xy boy. what do you do when you find Klinefelter syndrome for example. sue?

Why can't they call it a sex scan? That's what it is

I just googled 'sex scans' and it came up with baby scan places near where I live.