To start a campaign to prevent clinics from offering "gender scans"

[NNChangeAgain]

I've been following the trans debate, both here and in RL and it strikes me that most of the disagreement and arguments stem from the language and words used.

One of the biggest misunderstandings is the way in which the word "gender" has become interchangable with the word "sex". And no one is more guilty of that than the clinics which offer "gender scans" during pregnancy.

They are not gender scans though, are they? They are scans to determine the external sexual organs of the foetus. Even a foetal blood test identifies the genetic sex of the baby, not the gender.

Is this misrepresentation? Telling a pregnant woman the "gender" of the baby they are carrying is impossible - surely it should stop? And just maybe, it would begin to resolve some of the conflict over the trans debate at the same time ?

Generally, this is an issue that many parts of the NHS are still catching up with! (There is some unfortunate wording, for example, in screening letters). I would actually suggest a broader awareness-raising campaign of some kind. Manchester LGBT foundation have made a good start in this area - it might be worth contacting them?

OP I think I know what you mean- gender and sex have different meanings. Sex refers to the sex organs, whether they are male or female. Gender is about characteristics/behaviour

Are you saying that you think they should be renamed as sex scans and so they can still determine the sex of the baby?

This. I don't want to ban sex scans, but clinics which offer gender scans should be subject to the same Trading Standards rules as everyone else.

If a clinic is allowed to claim that they can determine the gender of an unborn baby, then a clairvoyant should be allowed to advertise the same service.

Don't you think your time and expertise would be better used campaigning to support trans people who are struggling day to day? You can't honestly believe you would receive any substantial support for a campaign as meaningless as this? Support a change in understanding by demonstrating value. Focus your energy on people who need you. There are plenty of parents who don't go for gender scans

Ermmm, perhaps it's different in other clinics, but in mine for both of my pregnancies I've never had the 20-week abnormalities scan referred to as a "gender scan" by health professionals. It's a "20-week abnormalities scan" - that's how they talk about it and that's how they refer to it in the medical literature they give you for information. In fact, much of this literature explicitly states that the point of the scan is not to find out the sex/gender of the baby but to scan for abnormalities, and that the identification of sexual organs, if it's possible at all, is just a nice side-effect.

And nobody talked about "gender" during both of my scans. I was just told that the baby is likely to be a boy or a girl. What other language are they supposed to use? Baby with a penis/baby with a vagina? I guess this would be possible, but why bother when most people just refer to their babies as boys and girls? As feminist as I am, I will not be calling my children "child with a penis" or "child with a vagina" until they make a conscious decision about their gender themselves (I imagine this would also involve gender-neutral names and never referring to a child as a "he" or a "she"). I just call my son a boy and my daughter a girl.

Autumn I don't think the OP is referring to NHS scans but private ones.

gunting, now I am even less interested. What percentage of women gives birth in private clinics? Minuscule. I really cannot bring myself to be bothered about linguistic dillusions of a few rich people.

autumn the web is littered with adverts and websites of private clinics offering "gender scans". I don't think the NHS is the issue here - it's the commercial marketplace which have misused the term "gender" to such an extent that society is now unclear as to the meaning.

It is a huge problem currently and causes unintentional offence and upset. If the terms gender and sex were clearly understood by all, then there would be far less risk of offence by the statements "you can't change sex" or "you can't use sex segregated facilities". As it is, the interchangable nature of the two words leads to upset and unintentional hurt.

Don't be a dafty OP.

X-post Autumn - many thousands of women who have NHS births pay for private scans; this isn't about giving birth, it's about the advertising used by companies who fleece targeting prospective parents with fluffy, inaccurate language.

Someone said thread, it can't be called a sexing scan. It can, as that is what it is, but it's less marketable than a "gender" scan as the word "sex" is not associated with babies, ironically !

Autumn anyone can go and pay £60 for a private scan. I had 2 private ones and my son was born in an NHS hospital and all of my care was on the NHS.

Anyone off the street can do a course and buy an ultrasound machine to set up a private clinic.

parents believe that their baby is being assigned a "gender"

This is daft, like who is at the hospitals handing out genders to babies?

Don't you think your time and expertise would be better used campaigning to support trans people who are struggling day to day? You can't honestly believe you would receive any substantial support for a campaign as meaningless as this? Support a change in understanding by demonstrating value. Focus your energy on people who need you. There are plenty of parents who don't go for gender scans

Completely agree.

NNChangeAgain, still not convinced. I am surprised you are not more bothered by the treatment of pregnant women and their fetuses and unborn children as commodities and are seemingly ok with "trading standards" to be applied to them as opposed to medical ethics. Sorry, but neither me nor my child are a product to be bought and sold.

And in any case, if somebody is daft enough to go for a "gender scan" in a private clinic, I don't think a change of language will help them much. I fail to see a "huge problem" in this specific area in the UK.

I sort of get what you are saying... in that it's the wrong term. But many people (whether incorrect or not) use gender to refer to sex. When someone asks me what gender my pet is I don't think about what colours or toys they like... or ask them what they identify as... I tell them it's a boy/male or girl/female depending on what reproductive organs they have.

I like the line in the article comparing gender to horoscopes. Can you imagine instead of having a gender you were expected and encouraged (consciously or not) to identify with what some randomers have decided suits your star sign. Now instead of girls like pink, leo's have to like yellow, and virgo red etc... Taurus' like to play in nature and explore whilst aquarius' like to play with dolls... Yep that would go down well.

But anyway back to the OP's question, your crackers. People don't like to use the word sex because it has another meaning. So they say gender. Yup it's daft. It's only a word and I think people will understand that when you say my sex is female that you aren't talking about engaging in coitus. Sort of like how most dog owners say they have a female dog rather than saying they own a bitch. It's just one of those words. It isn't going to change anytime soon and I'd rather see a movement to stop 'gender identity' rather than stop using the 'wrong' word. Seriously why does having a penis stop men from wearing dresses. Why do we refer to a person as he or she? It's not acceptable to say 'that black person', but 'that woman' is fine?

Oh dear, op. Think you need to find a hobby. Maybe something that will get you away from the internet (and far away from clinics using the word gender). Seriously, it has zero effect on anyone's life whether it's called a sex or gender scan.

When I read post like this I wonder if the person talks like this and about this stuff in RL. What job do they do?

Simply....bore off!

I agree the terminology is used incorrectly. That's about as much as I can agree with from your post. You're heart's in the right place but you're misplacing your efforts.

I really don't think the misuse of terminology stems directly from the nomenclature used to describe ante-natal scans. "Gender" and "sex" have been used interchangeable (albeit erroneously) for quite some time and I think ante-natal scans have bugger all to do with it.

Actually OP, I think you are sort of correct.

The misuse and misunderstanding of gender versus sex is starting to have some negative impacts , particularly on women.

It is particularly worrying when, for example, gender is used instead of sex in legislation.

Completely agree with NotSureYet

YABU. And boring.

The terminology is indeed incorrect. Better to campaign for correct use of terminology. Am sick of being asked for my gender on forms instead of sex, I don't subscribe to the idea that I have a gender other than what society pushes onto me.