To start a campaign to prevent clinics from offering "gender scans"

[NNChangeAgain]

I've been following the trans debate, both here and in RL and it strikes me that most of the disagreement and arguments stem from the language and words used.

One of the biggest misunderstandings is the way in which the word "gender" has become interchangable with the word "sex". And no one is more guilty of that than the clinics which offer "gender scans" during pregnancy.

They are not gender scans though, are they? They are scans to determine the external sexual organs of the foetus. Even a foetal blood test identifies the genetic sex of the baby, not the gender.

Is this misrepresentation? Telling a pregnant woman the "gender" of the baby they are carrying is impossible - surely it should stop? And just maybe, it would begin to resolve some of the conflict over the trans debate at the same time ?

I agree with you actually OP. It isn't a gender scan it's a sex scan.

They're are many examples of this in general and we should start using the correct terms.

If you want to be really fussy, it's not actually a baby either, it's a foetus.

Can I just clarify what you mean by "that's what causing a lot of misunderstandings in the trans debate" ?

Who is misunderstanding what?

For goodness sake. So long as you come out of the scan knowing if your baby has male or female organs (if you actually want to know) then what does it really matter what the scan is called - they could call it anything really and it wouldn't change what it actually is. When baby is grown up they can go off and scratch their heads about what sexuality or gender they may be, but at this stage of their lives it is crazy to be getting offended about stuff like this. Won't most people be more concerned about the health of their unborn baby and that all medical procedures are being done correctly, rather than what the scan is referred to as?

Wow. Your I HEART Transpeople badge is in the post.

In the great scheme, this is the battle you want to fight, really?

I think you have too much time on your hands and if this is the biggest issue in your life you are very lucky.

Omg. Really? Can't spray perfume. Can't get a gender scan. Can't sing about the black sheep. Can't wear a poppy if your an english footballer. What is this world coming to?

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody could actually be stupid enough to believe that by being scanned their baby is being 'assigned a gender' in the sense that you mean it. Everybody knows that they are being told their child's sex, which, to the vast majority of people, is synonymous with gender. It seems to have now been decided that the words gender and sex can no longer be used interchangeably, but most people continue to use them that way and would be baffled at the idea that it could possibly be construed as offensive not to.

parents believe that their baby is being assigned a "gender"

How patronising!

I don't know any parents who understood the scan to be anything beyond finding out if the baby had a penis or a vulva (and working heart/lungs/head etc)

Do you really think that pregnant women are walking around missunderstanding how much about a baby the scan can show just because it's (admittedly) miss named in order to be englishey-politey and not say SEX!

Nobody could actually be stupid enough to believe that by being scanned their baby is being 'assigned a gender' in the sense that you mean it

Yet the term "gender assigned at birth" is used not only in every day conversations about trans issues, but also in official policies. If society continues to reinforce the misuse of the word, the misunderstandings will continue.

I appreciate its not going to change the world, but then, what does? Boycotting particular manufacturers, petitions and such like are equally futile, but they do reach a proportion of the population who give it a bit more thought than they otherwise would have done.

It's a losing battle OP.

Some people think they are being more sophisticated when they use gender instead of sex.
Others are too embarrassed to say sex or have no idea what the difference is.

You are right, but it won't work.

Some people think they are being more sophisticated when they use gender instead of sex.
Others are too embarrassed to say sex or have no idea what the difference is.

How patronising can you get....

Or simply observant.

So, why is the word gender used instead of sex in these situations, piglet?

If it's not a sense of superiority, or "Britishness" due to embarrassment, then why is the word gender gradually replacing the word sex in terms of defining a person?

So, in your informed, non patronising opinion, Piglet, why are people defending g it?
Why are they using a term they know is wrong instead of the correct one?

Sorry, cross posted.

Sorry, "using" not "defending".

NNChangeAgain, you are totally losing me. Is your problem with "gender scans" in private clinics or with "gender assigned at birth" - a 20-week fetus is rather not the same as a baby that has been born.

And how would you not assign gender at birth at all? As much as I try to engage in gender-neutral parenting, I cannot call my children "it" instead of "he" or "she". And the words "he" and "she" are, whether we like it or not, come with all sorts of social connotations. It's not like it's actually possible to draw a clear line between sex and gender. Analytically, perhaps, but in practice? Any kind of categorisation immediately leads to all sorts of conclusions being drawn about the different categories - basic Social Identity Theory - so talking about sex translates into talking about gender in about 5 seconds flat.

I don't think gender is gradually replacing the word sex...in fact, the opposite is happening as we become more aware.

To add a little extra:
I am a scientist who, every tenth word at work (OK, exaggerating), has to describe or refer to biological sex. I am forever correcting people who use "gender" in the context of my work (which is solely based on genetics and partly in animal species that cannot possibly have gender constructs). Furthermore, when I review the work of others', I always correct use of "gender" to "sex" (I don't review anything where "gender" could be a reasonable term).

I am very annoying at work. I am sometimes teasingly referred to as "First name "sex-is-biology-gender-is-a-social-construct" Surname".

But, it's important here. The words are not synonymous or interchangeable in biology. And this includes pregnancy/all medical contexts, AFAIC.

I have an ignorant question, but I'm going to ask it, because that's how ignorant people become less so.

Right so, scans are for sex and not gender.

The word transgender.

Transgender people have always been the gender in their mind that they want their body to be.

Transgender people (sometimes) have sex changes. Where the sex is trans'ed. Not the gender.

So why are we encouraged to use the term transgender, when really it should be transsexual?

Or am I missing the point? Does transgender just refer to the mental alignment, and transsexual just refer to those who have changed their bodies?

I'm confused.

I agree with you, OP. The BBC used the term prenatal gender testing recently. It adds to the confusion which is in itself harmful and makes it impossible to discuss very important issues.

I don't understand what the alternative to male and female babies would be. Child with male genitals but no gender until they are 9/17/26 or whatever age they make their announcement? Would I still have a son?

I'm not sure that the vast majority of people really care about the difference on a day to day basis.

Transgender people (sometimes) have sex changes. Where the sex is trans'ed. Not the gender.

But they don't change sex. They have -gender reassignment surgery_, so that their anatomy aligns more closely with that which is most common for people who identify as the same gender as they do.

It is a lie that anyone can change sex, no hormones, surgery or counselling can achieve that.