Am I really 'grossly irresponsible'?

[Saggingninja]

My 12 year old daughter's best friend - 'Polly' comes to stay for a few days over half-term. Polly is 14. On the first day, Polly says she would love to go into town (Manchester) with Katie. So I give them money, make sure their phones are charged and send them off.

Both girls are sitting in a cafe having hot chocolate. Polly texts her mum to say she's having fun. Three minutes later Polly's mother calls me. I am 'grossly irresponsible letting two young girls go into town and anything could happen.'

I pointed out that it's half-term, there are likely to be loads of parents and children around and both girls go to school by bus every day. But Polly's mother is convinced their are gangs of Mancunian paedophiles lurking everywhere, so I dash into town to rescue the girls from having a nice time.

I had very overprotective parents who convinced me there were 'bad people' everywhere and kept me in a bubble. I grew up anxious and timid and was determined that my own children would be more confident. And our sons are far more likely to be victims of criminal violence. Our girls are in far more (statistical) danger of being assaulted by someone they know well.

Perhaps I should have told Polly's mother before I let them go. But she (Polly) seemed so pleased and there were two of them. Was I wrong?

Francis I find it very hard, psychologically, to disagree with you because I love you so. Well, your username most particularly, but I also like you for choosing it.

Putting that aside, I forget the details of Polly's daily travels but I do think that there is a big difference between travelling to school in a town or smaller city - which is sometimes on a school bus but if not then often with friends - and going into Manchester. Though I don't know Manchester well, but equivalent from my house would be Birmingham or London. DD1 wouldn't want to even go into Reading with a friend. And she's done 6 months of a long cycle ride or getting the (public) bus into Oxford to school every day. She was able to do so because she had a neighbour's older daughter to travel with and I'd practised it with her a load of times.

(Though now I'm unfortunately back to driving her to school as the neighbours have moved so DD1 has no one to travel with, and the police wrote to us all to say that until they catch the men who kidnapped and raped a schoolgirl locally that they should all be accompanied unless they have a group to travel in. The whole thing really hasn't helped with encouraging her to be more independent or to view the wider world as a generally safe place: she was on the same road as the abduction at the same time so it has exacerbated her fears.)

But Sometville-those really are special circumstances. Most 14 year olds aren't dealing with the issues your dd is. And, frankly, you would be being negligent if you didn't give a host parent a heads up.......

I don't see why people have such an objection to sending a text which takes two seconds to the parent of a child who is in your care to let them know/ask if it is ok if the child is going somewhere independently and outside your care.

I find it weird that that is being characterised as not letting children be independent and being overprotective. To me it is just basic courtesy and respect given it is not your child, it is a child who has a parent/parents who are making their own choices about independence etc and who unless informed believes their child is in your care.

Do none of you want to know, at least roughly, where your children are? Do you just expect your children's friend's parents to just treat them like they do their own children?

My main thing is that I grew up with a mother who thought it was ok to let me go out to nightclubs drinking at 13 and who pretended that my friends were sleeping over (omitting the nightclub/booze into) and who used to buy alcohol for kids who came to parties from age 16 without asking parents and used to cram 10 dc into five seats in the car to drive to the city 30mins away without asking about that either.

Her reasons were 'well when they are with me I get to make the choices'.

Somerville

You are talking about what your child wants or doesn't want to do. And that's fine. But this child was happy to go, and therefore should be allowed to

And I am still not clear what the people who would say no are worried about. Is it the vanishingly small possibility that something really really bad will happen? Or is it the fear of getting lost, or getting on the wrong bus or meeting an unpleasant shop assistant? Because if it's that, why would you want to protect them from that sort of thing?

I think it is much better for the child to respect their parent's rules (abuse aside) and not to put the child in the position of being able to use your home for rebellion. Quite apart from anything else a 14 yo who is not allowed out and who manipulates you into letting them out then crows about it to wind her mother out is not someone I would trust to be out and about with my 12 yo.

"I don't see why people have such an objection to sending a text which takes two seconds to the parent of a child who is in your care to let them know/ask if it is ok if the child is going somewhere independently and outside your care."

I haven't got an objection to doing it. It just wouldn't occur to me to do it in this case with a 14 year old. As I said, there are things I would check. about- just not this.

Not worried in any way. Simply not wishing to get my 12 yo embroiled in a 14yo's rebellion just because I CBA to text/clear the situation re the other parent's rules.

Yes they are unusual circumstances as thankfully a stranger abduction and rape of a 14 YO in broad daylight is so very, very rare.

There have been long threads of those of us in Oxford discussing it - and people from further afield whose daughters saw it in the press and are upset about it - it has actually affected the confidence of a lot of teenagers. And of course it shouldn't and it is still rare and no more likely to happen to any of them because it happened this one time.

And I know I'm over sensitive about it because I'm so fucked off about yet another load of shit for my lovely DD1 (and her friends) to have to deal with, as well as for the girl herself. And I don't think the police guidance is particularly helpful or confidence inspiring.

But my point is that there are loads of things that affect a teenagers confidence. Not just to go to crowded, new places but to speak up for themselves about whether they'd really enjoy it or be able to cope. And it's great that you and francis and loads of other people have teenagers who have masses of confidence and can live their life to the full. But please don't write the parents of those teenagers who aren't like that all off as over protective. I am more protective of DD1 than you are with your DS because she needs me to be since she's experienced too many of life's cruelties. And yes she is in counselling. But she doesn't want everyone to know about her anxieties so I can't tell all her friends parents everything. It's very hard and especially as a lone parent where it's all on me and I'm so aware that I'm fucking her up even more than circumstances have already when I get it wrong.

Coming onto thread like these and seeing that lots of sensible posters think the parent of any 14YO who can't manage the situation Polly was in should be ashamed of themselves is a bit shit. That's all.

And I'm far from overprotective. My dc walk to school on their own from about 9. I have had to push my nervous 11 1/2 yo to have the confidence to go outside our neighbourhood, to the shop, play out with his friends etc. He is still too nervous to get the bus to town which is a 5 minute journey.

I wouldn't do what some of the parents do round here which is kick their 6 yo out for the day on a Saturday.

I had a very similar situation, Somerville, in that dd had both physical and MH issues which made it difficult for her to have the same independence at the same time- and which also meant she could collapse very suddenly. By the time she was old enough to be out with other people, the line I took was basically, "Well either we have to tell them or else you have to be responsible for what you do or do not do. Because expecting other people to be mind readers is simply not on." I would never have blamed anyone for not realising that dd was different from other girls. Either she let me tell it or she managed to the consequences or she didn't go.

I have been in a situation myself where I only found out afterwards that a child who was staying with us had a diagnosis of Aspergers and could not be expected to understand normal risk assessment. In the event, both she and dd were ok, but it was quite a scary experience for dd and the potential for a serious accident was there. I did blame the parents for putting me in that situation.

I say the same thing to our undergraduates re SN: you don't have to declare them, but if you don't declare them you can't expect us to take them into account either.

Well yes, that is rather my point. Do you want a 14 yo who has been overprotected to use your home as a place to rebel and to wind up their parents? Doesn't it put rather a different spin on your 12 yo's safety and the whole trip if it is not just a simple trip to town but part of an active rebellion on the 14 yo's part?

Teenagers are all rebellious no matter what boundaries they are given and no matter how sensible/mature/independent they are. They also have poor impulse control.

There are plenty of things a 14 yo can think of to do whilst on a rebellious mission - smoking, drinking, shoplifting etc that I wouldn't fancy my 12 yo who thought they were just going to town being dragged into.

And for all those reasons that is why I would check with the other parent.

I think it is better to teach independence but I'm not so detached from the world that I don't know that other parents have different attitudes towards independence - some are very overprotective and some let their tiny kids out at all hours doing who knows what.

It's totally overkill to say the OP is 'grossly irresponsible' but these situations can mostly be avoided by communicating with the child's parents.

Francis thank you for the suggestions. I got her a rape alarm and whistle and there have been self defence classes offered at school but anything like that just seems to feed her dread that this kind of attack is inevitable, somehow. DS showed her how to escape from a 'bear hug' (that was how the girl was taken without anyone noticing) as it's something he learned in rugby and she got worried that if someone grabbed her and she forgot to do it then subsequent attack would be her fault.

And I do agree, and have said all along, that Polly's mum over/reacted. The girls were fine so there was nothing to be angry about.

My point was less about Polly and more about the way in which the discussion had moved on to - what felt like - saying that the parent of any 14YO who couldn't go into a major city should be ashamed of themselves. I was just trying to point out that it isn't as straightforward as that.

Like all these things there are always exceptions. And I think the "so long as there aren't special circumstances to be taken into consideration" sometimes gets taken as read when it shouldn't be. Which must be upsetting for people for whom there are special circumstances.

But I have to continue to ask how the host parent can take special circumstances into consideration if they aren't told? And surely you can't check every single thing they do is OK? You' be on the phone the whole time!

I keep x posting with you, Francis.

Sorry your DD is having a tough time and I'm glad she's getting help and is persevering.

I totally empathise with your feeling that she has less confidence than when she was younger. DD1 is the same - she was always a very confident and outgoing toddler and younger child. And she still is, within the perceived safety of our home. But she changed when DH first got seriously ill. And I know part of it might have been because she got handed too much responsibility (for herself, her siblings and the dog) too young, when I was trying to juggle everything and mostly failing abysmally.

Anyway, well done on your DD for hanging on in there with her degree. I can see why you're so proud of her.

When the consideration is removing supervision then I think it's a good idea to check.

Yes the abduction here has been so traumatic. And there are hordes of police outside the schools near where it happened but still no arrest. No CCTV of the abduction which is astounding on such a busy junction. Oh and TVP couldn't get a slot on Crimewatch for a reconstruction. DD1 and her friends read all this and feel like the patriarchal powers that be don't care about their safety, or justice for the girl who could be them.

One of her friends is trying to organise a reclaim the streets type event for the walk to school. I'd like DD1 to get involved but I know I need to leave it to her to decide.

I'm putting the link with the e-fit images just to get them out a bit wider. here

Hopefully Polly's mother will learn to tell the people hosting her child what is and isn't acceptable to her. How sensible (and obvious) that would be! But she doesn't sound like a very sensible woman so I wouldn't bank on it. Maybe she enjoys moaning about other people being 'grossly irresponsible'.