Am I really 'grossly irresponsible'?

[Saggingninja]

My 12 year old daughter's best friend - 'Polly' comes to stay for a few days over half-term. Polly is 14. On the first day, Polly says she would love to go into town (Manchester) with Katie. So I give them money, make sure their phones are charged and send them off.

Both girls are sitting in a cafe having hot chocolate. Polly texts her mum to say she's having fun. Three minutes later Polly's mother calls me. I am 'grossly irresponsible letting two young girls go into town and anything could happen.'

I pointed out that it's half-term, there are likely to be loads of parents and children around and both girls go to school by bus every day. But Polly's mother is convinced their are gangs of Mancunian paedophiles lurking everywhere, so I dash into town to rescue the girls from having a nice time.

I had very overprotective parents who convinced me there were 'bad people' everywhere and kept me in a bubble. I grew up anxious and timid and was determined that my own children would be more confident. And our sons are far more likely to be victims of criminal violence. Our girls are in far more (statistical) danger of being assaulted by someone they know well.

Perhaps I should have told Polly's mother before I let them go. But she (Polly) seemed so pleased and there were two of them. Was I wrong?

I still don't get it......

You didn't do anything wrong.

I will freely admit to roaming the streets at 12 or so, and not to prepare for the future either, just because it was fun. I'm not sure it ever occurred to my mother, who grew up in Glasgow during WWII, that there was all that much to be concerned about in a proper city with me pottering about going to museums and parks. She was probably more worried about me roaming at home as it was rural and relatively isolated, but luckily she was able to control her emotions and let me have the most fantastic childhood.

You were wrong, not to check with the mother before letting her daughter go.

No you are not irresponsible. Like I said you should have asked and I'm sure you will if something like it happens again. What is irresponsible is the parents who everyweek let their 18m-2 and 3yr olds go on soft play that is meant for 4years old. Also let them on by themselves without any supervision. The parents will be sat down talking to their friends or on their phone. The parents think it's ok to supervise from 50mts away and they can't possibily mess up their lovely painted nails. So stop worrying most people who have read what you have to say realise we all make mistakes. Even toodles 60. Because we are all human not robots.

Both Polly and her mum must be aware that it is totally normal for senior school kids to go into town with their mates.

Pollys mum should therefore have warned OP of all the normal teen activities her DD is not allowed to do without an adult present and Polly herself should have said no to the trip when it was suggested, as she knows her mum better than any of the other parties. She is 14 and needs to start taking responsibility for her own actions.

It was Polly who suggested the trip to town. On the first day, Polly says she would love to go into town (Manchester) with Katie. So I give them money, make sure their phones are charged and send them off.

I think Polly is so burdened by the rules and (yyy) so aware that it is perfectly normal for secondary school aged teens to go to town unaccompanied by their parents that she seized the chance to taste a little freedom as soon as she was away from home. She is aware that most parents would have no problem with this plan and this encouraged her to ask. It's likely given her mother's rude and angry communication with the OP that a request like that at home would have been met with a brick wall.

I think the OP (and HairyLurker) should develop a bit more of a sense of suspicion when teens come up with ideas that involve leaving their supervision. As the 12 year old gets more involved in social activities with her teen friends she is likely to meet some people who will be pushy, some who will be dangerous, and some who have idiots for parents - it may well be important for your DD's sake to ask, 'Am I being used?' and maybe more importantly, 'Is my daughter being used in the absence of this teen's mother?' when a request comes up that may look perfectly fine on the surface. Katie might in future get ditched by the Polly in her life when Polly heads off with an unknown set of friends or a boyfriend, or feel she had no choice but to tag along to some event or location she wasn't comfortable with. Best to investigate by contacting the other parent, for your own DD's sake, when a guest/friend makes a suggestion of a trip to another location.

It's a good idea too to tell your DD that no matter how tits up a trip or a friendship goes, or how embarrassed she may feel about that, you will come and get her "no questions asked" no matter where she is.

I understand where you are coming from - but it wasn't your decision to make. I have twins and children even at the same age are different. My children have been brought up doing everything together but yet one of them is a few years behind in being street wise as he just doesn't pay as much attention when walking around. I think just take it as a learning experience to next time ring the mother and ask if they mind incase they do. Polly would have known her mother wouldn't be happy about it so she must have texted her mother to diffuse getting in trouble later.

Is it only me who's noticed the OP has only made one comment after her OP on Thursday, on this post of over 400 messages?

Belles, I was thinking that too. Seems to be some guy saying he took the girls into town, but not sure if it was true or not.

I totally agree that describing teens out shopping with friends as roaming the streets is the equivalent of describing someone leaving their child with a qualified trusted childminder as 'dumping them with a stranger'.

Belles I posted yesterday and then spent the day taking 'Polly' home. Came back - went out with 'Katie' for some quality time then only this morning do I check the thread and find to my amazement that it's all kicked off and the thread is in the sodding Sun. Complete with Getty pics of women shouting at each other.

For the record I am sorry I didn't ask Polly's mum first and I apologised to her. It didn't occur to me as Polly is 14.

Bertrand - what don't you get? Why are you confused? What can't you follow?

Polly's mum didn't want her 14 year old in Manchester without an adult. Does that help? It doesn't matter what our thoughts are about that concern but that was her wish and she had not given her consent.

I'm a bit of a worrier. My oldest 2 are 12 (13 next month) and 15. They get picked up at the front door by mini bus for school. So I feel they don't get much freedom. The oldest doesn't really meet up with friends. But he's been away with the school and they've gone off in groups which I am happy with. But the 12 year old I worry about a lot more. Mainly because he is 13 in 2 weeks but is the size of an average 9 year old. He has met his friends in our local town. I'm happy as long as he stays with them. His mates have biked to our house before (we are quite rural) they've all gone off together but then as he's furthest away he has biked back about 2 miles alone on county lanes. I am a bit nervous of him doing this but have to let him. I would let him go with friends on a train as long as he stayed with his friends.
When I was a child we lived in greater London and I spent all day out on my bike from around 10 years old. Times have definitely changed.

Cauliflower - I completely agree. It's immaterial what anyone else thinks - they're not Polly's mum.

"Polly's mum didn't want her 14 year old in Manchester without an adult."
Yes I get that bit. What I don't get is how anyone could possibly have anticipated this and so asked. I don't see how the OP is remotely to blame. What other things is she supposed to check? Using the kettle? Making toast? Watching a 12A movie? Surely you can't expect anyone to think "Oh, this visiting 14 year old's mother might be a loon- I'd better just check it's OK for her to turn the shower on for herself"

I would have asked daughter to ask friend to confirm with parent that they could go....

But my 13 yr old girl goes on the bus with friends to local shopping centres - just need to know they have phone and an eta when back and to call if they change plans.

And equally I don't get why you don't get that Bertrand - so there we go. Live and let live.

I flew to Rio alone (met relatives there) at the age of 14 at had a lot of freedom as a teenager. The result was I made my own judgements and did not get pregnant, drink, do drugs or get in any kind of trouble but I did develop a great sense of responsibility and confidence. Parents were happy as long as they knew where I was at night.

Groovee, I assume I'm 'some guy'. If you read my post again you'll see they went into town on the train, and I said I would pick them up at 3 - I had a meeting in Manchester at 2. But when we got the phone call I went in to accomapny them. Saggingninja will confirm I am who I say. For the record I suggested the girls could go into Manchester in the morning and I would pick them up. I had absolute confidence for reasons I have already discussed that they would be fine. Polly was keen on the idea. She presents in conversation as extremely adult, and as our neice I have known her since she was born. I'm caught between thinking we should have checked - and knowing my sister's anxiety quotient I now think we should - and that Polly should have reminded us. Oh well. I doubt we'll be trusted with her again until she's 23.

So at what age would you think it's OK not to ask? And how do you know what to ask about?

What I think is irrelevant - although since you ask I wouldn't be happy for my 12 year old to go into the city, so probably when they were 14, which means I would continue to check with Polly's mum for a year or so.

How do I know what to ask about if I am looking after another person's child I use my common sense and I err on the side of caution as I am aware others parent differently - and 2 late teens later it seems to have worked.

Bertrand each child and their parents have their own norms and standards. You can't anticipate everything but there are "accepted limits".

Watching a 12 film at age 14 would normally be fine, because a 12 film is accepted as being suitable for 12 year olds. I wouldn't check this with a parent. If they came back at me for allowing it, I would explain that this is the age standard which has been applied by a national standard. I would be comfortable with this.

Making toast and using the kettle is normally fine for much younger children, but most visiting guests wouldn't be using those in any case. I wouldn't supervise this because I would assume my child would use them or show her. If she burnt herself or it came back on me I would be nearby to assist normally and would be comfortable not directly supervising this.

The issue with Polly's mum was supervision. She assessed the risk of her 14 year old being in a city centre as too high. There are risks, otherwise we would all be fine for our 9 year olds to go. Maybe she is over protective or maybe her 14 year old has poor judgement or is immature. Maybe there is another issue that we aren't aware of. The moment at which you are looking after another parent's child and you remove supervision is the moment at which you double check that's fine with the other parent. Maybe 90% of the time it will be. But you can't assume that the level of supervision you assess as being fine for your child is the same for someone else's.
While I would be comfortable for my own 14 year old to go into a town centre, I would not assume that another parent would be fine with that while she was on my watch. I would check.
The age at which I would not check would probably depend on the child and what I knew of them. Probably 16.
Ultimately if Polly had suffered some issue in town, and I had allowed her to go into town without first seeking her parents' consent then yes I would feel responsible.
If she had burnt herself on a toaster it would have been a managed risk under my supervision.

Hope that helps.

I disagree. "Disappearing upstairs" within the house is a different level of supervision than going into a city centre. It's not "abnormal" to have an issue with zero supervision, even though it might not be your norm.

If Polly was visiting me, I just don't understand how I could possibly know that she wasn't allowed to do something that every other 14 year old I have ever met is allowed to do. That's the issue for me. If her mother won't let her that is, I suppose, up to her. And if I knew she wasn't allowed, then obviously I wouldn't let her. But it genuinely wouldn't cross my mind to ask.

I can think of a couple of things that I would ask about, but only because they are out of the ordinary. But not going into town in broad daylight.

Oh, and any 14 year old spending the weekend with me would certainly be using the kettle and the toaster. And probably the oven too!