Am I really 'grossly irresponsible'?

[Saggingninja]

My 12 year old daughter's best friend - 'Polly' comes to stay for a few days over half-term. Polly is 14. On the first day, Polly says she would love to go into town (Manchester) with Katie. So I give them money, make sure their phones are charged and send them off.

Both girls are sitting in a cafe having hot chocolate. Polly texts her mum to say she's having fun. Three minutes later Polly's mother calls me. I am 'grossly irresponsible letting two young girls go into town and anything could happen.'

I pointed out that it's half-term, there are likely to be loads of parents and children around and both girls go to school by bus every day. But Polly's mother is convinced their are gangs of Mancunian paedophiles lurking everywhere, so I dash into town to rescue the girls from having a nice time.

I had very overprotective parents who convinced me there were 'bad people' everywhere and kept me in a bubble. I grew up anxious and timid and was determined that my own children would be more confident. And our sons are far more likely to be victims of criminal violence. Our girls are in far more (statistical) danger of being assaulted by someone they know well.

Perhaps I should have told Polly's mother before I let them go. But she (Polly) seemed so pleased and there were two of them. Was I wrong?

If the friend were 12 then maybe but at 14 I think what you did was fine - my older two have both gone all over London at 14, they know a couple of dodgy places to avoid but local shopping or to oxford street from about 13. Yanbu and shouldn't let the other mother get away with that.
Some people are odd though - I was on a plane yesterday and a girl of between 13-15 was sat next to her brother sobbing - a real meltdown because her mother was sat across the isle and one seat in front - the mother seemed to think it was reasonable that she bawled her eyes out because her mum was an arms length away for a 4 hr flight! I listened to her a lot once she'd made everyone swap seats - no special needs - just over protected.
If my 9 yr old had made such a fuss I'd have been shocked and ashamed but the mum pandered to it which is why the girl was such a whimp. You sound ok to me.

Town/ city - I've lived in London all my life - fairly central, but when I go into the heart of central London - I would call it going in to town - I think 'city centre' is a northern expression - or am I wrong?

I would ask/let the parents know about any child that was in my care who was going to be out of my care for a period of time. I don't think it has anything to do with what is age appropriate and everything to do with being responsible for the care of someone else's child.

I'm also surprised no-one has mentioned about the 14 yo being responsible for supervising the 12 yo. I have a rule with kids that whatever they do independence wise the youngest child in the group has to be ready and capable independently of the others. I don't think it is fair or particularly safe to expect older children to be responsible for younger ones who might not necessarily be safe on their own.

And I don't think a young teenager crying because she isn't near her mum on a flight is necessarily a wimp or over protected. I know plenty of adults who are terrified of flying. It is something people can be phobic about.

I'm also surprised no-one has mentioned about the 14 yo being responsible for supervising the 12 yo.

It was mentioned upthread. I said that I was the twelve year old in that situation once and would have been outraged at any suggestion that I needed to be 'supervised' by my fourteen year old friends. We were equals and no-one took any notice of who was older or younger than the others. Neither would my mother, or their mothers, have expected it. My mother expected me to be capable of looking after myself - which I was. She wouldn't have been at all impressed if I'd needed 'supervising' on a perfectly normal, everyday activity.

"I'm also surprised no-one has mentioned about the 14 yo being responsible for supervising the 12 yo"

They have. The 14 year old wasn't responsible. The 12 year old had down this before.

I wish some of you would open your mind to the fact that there are reasons for 14 YO's to not be used to going into a major city with a friend other than their parents being hideously over protective. I'm not the only one who had given an example of other reasons why this can be the case. For what it's worth I'd love it if DD1 hadn't experienced so much trauma that she felt confident to go off shopping in big cities with her friends. But that's not our reality so I have to work on encouraging smaller steps towards independence.

I also suspect that geographical location and family income informs some of the differing attitudes here. Where I live - South East but rural, going into London or even a smaller shopping city like Reading would mean driving my child 30 minutes to the train (more in traffic) or her cycling to get a bus to then get a train. It's just not something that her group of friends do regularly at all - and those who do it at all have very wealthy parents - the cost of all that travel would use up DD's cash before she'd even done any shopping. She'd have to save up for it, and she prefers to save for other things.

She went out this morning with friends to walk all the respective dogs and do some map reading practice for DofE. That is well within her capabilities, and she's in a group if there are any problems. But if a child who lives in a city came to stay I would check with their parent first. Because there is no phone signal and they do need to have some countryside nous about them and I wouldn't know if they had.

I don't think giving other parents a kicking for the way in which other child is 'behind' their own is really on. Lots of the posters in here wouldn't dream of doing so because a 3 YO isn't talking or a 7YO not an independent reader or a 10YO still wetting the bed. Turning into a teen doesn't magically make children develop in a steady, linear pattern and where they are 'behind' the curve it is often largely out of their own - and their parents - control. Just like when they're younger, it takes patience and love and time to help many teenagers to develop independence and learn to thrive out in the big bad world. (That's what she calls it; not me.)

For what it's worth my daughter has no SN and in the house or our small community she is confident and competent. Cooks meals, does her own laundry, babysits younger siblings and other kids in the village.

Right. So. Your child has a 14 year old friend for the weekend. Do you check with th mother if-
They go on a dog walk.
They go to a mutual friend's house
She makes a cup of tea.
She uses the shower
They decide to bake a cake
You go to the shops
They decide to camp in the garden.

I am trying to think of things that I haven't asked about. Things I have cleared in advance (probably mostly specific to our particular lives) are kayaking, going on a hack-both with and without adult supervision and having a glass of wine with dinner.

Somerville, you make good points about the general development of teenagers. But is it very relevant to "Polly" who cheerfully agreed with the outing, made the decision not to check with her mum first, and then texted her mum that she was having a great time? Or to Polly's mum, who did not, on finding out, hint to the OP that there were special reasons why her decision was wrong in Polly's particular case, but went off the deep end about her being 'grossly irresponsible letting two young girls go into town and anything could happen.' ?

Somerville- but this child wanted to go. It wasn't that she was being forced to go!

And I live very rurally as well. 20 minute drive to the London train, then a £14 child return.

But I would assume that any teen was allowed to do the things that pretty much all other teens if the same age are allowed to do unless that teen's parent had forewarned me. Polly's mum is of course at liberty to deny her freedoms that other 14 year olds have, but the onus is on her to make other parents aware; if Polly was staying for several days she surely can't have expected that the girls we're going to stay in all the time or be constantly chaperoned.

There's no point expecting Polly to mention any of this - no teen is willingly going to admit that their parent babies them.

cory My latest post is in reference to the way that this thread has moved on, more broadly, to the issue of what 14 YO's can do and when to check with parents.

I said in my first post on this thread that Polly's mother was rude to OP and shouldn't have gone off at her like that. And that if someone is nice enough to look after my child then I wouldn't call them out on a judgement call that I feel is wrong - I would view it as my fault for not giving more of a heads up in advance and my child's for not being honest about her feelings/capabilities.

As far as Polly wanting to go - my daughter has agreed to things, at friends houses, that she didn't really want to do because she felt bad at ruining their fun. She learned from that the hard way - uncontrollable crying at friends house at 2am after watching a film she didn't want to watch but thought she might manage okay as her friend wanted to (the dad dies in the film and her dad has died). I could imagine her (prior to that experience and the many chats we've had about going with her gut instinct and texting me anytime if she's unsure or wants to talk it through) going along with a plan to go shopping in London if the other parent gave them money for it and the friend was excited. As much as anything she would feel that as a guest the polite thing is to go along with the plans of the host.

"As far as Polly wanting to go - my daughter has agreed to things, at friends houses, that she didn't really want to do because she felt bad at ruining their fun"

Gosh. I''m really not sure how the host mother can be expected to deal with that "unless Polly's mother warned them" One of my children used to become hysterical and hyperventilate if she saw a clown- I wouldn't have dreamed of not warning anyone she was staying with. And she also quite often had to picked up from sleepovers until she was about 11- I always talked to the host parent about it and gave her the option. But with no prior warning how are you expected to know? I would just assume that any 14 year old staying would be able to do any normal 14 year old activity- unless I was told in advance.

Bertrand in terms of a list of what I do and don't ask about; it depends on the friend's experience to that point.

So if the family have horses and we go round to the local stables then I wouldn't check, but otherwise I would. Likewise, local friends I wouldn't check about 'getting lost on purpose then finding way home with maps and no phone' excursions. But if I wasn't 100% that they have experience of that then I'd check. I have also checked if it's alright for DD1's friend who goes to an all-girls school to go to our neighbour's son's party - I wouldn't need to check that for a local friend as they'd have been going to the party anyway.

I wouldn't check about anything inside the house such as toaster, because my children could make their toast for them if they are clueless. I do tend to err on the side of caution and do a bit more for them than I do for my own kids, in the house.

I would check before something they are not legally at an age for, such as alcohol. I check about 12 cert films for my 10 YO's friends, for example. Even though they've usually seen them as 12A's at the cinema. I also check that it would be okay with the parent if DD1 wants a friend over on an evening she'll be babysitting and I'll be out.

If I didn't know the child and their family at all then I would err on the side of caution and pass the plan for the weekend past their parents in advance.

I would check/inform for anything where the children were out of my care I.e. Going out of the neighbourhood at that age - going to town, taking the dog down to the beach, going to a friends house that is not in the neighbourhood. Or if I was going out of the neighbourhood and leaving them behind.

I also find it laughable that a 12 yo and a 14 yo are equals. Of course every 12yo wants to think that but it simply is not true. 14 is massively different to 12, not in terms of years but in terms of development.

I'd expect my 14 yo to let me know/have a conversation with me about where they were going because they are in my care. I think it is common courtesy to tell/ask the parent who has left the child in your care about their child not being in your care for a period too.

I think that I personally would have asked Polly's mother first, tbh. I find some women are really over protective when letting their children go out, and yes it's a pain. Especially as it's not a problem for your twelve year old. My parents expected me to trance abroad and up and down the country at 13. I know at twelve I used to disappear all day, regularly. Being given such a long leash, gave me the confidence to travel the the USA and Australia alone. I thoroughly enjoyed it and almost didn't come back!

I think, personally, the mother is being OTT. Especially in somewhere like Manchester. There are CCTV cameras everywhere. I'm sure too, with all the publicity regarding stranger danger, the girls are very aware and would know where to ask for help. I'm surprised the other mother with a child of 14 has a problem with it thought, tbh. In only two years time she'll be 16 and really pushing the boundaries!
I just say to the mum it won't happen again, whatever age she is in the future, and sweep it under the carpet!

X posted with you there, Bertrand.

Of course it would have been ideal for Polly's mum to give a heads up, and like with you, I have always tried to do so about DD1. But it's impossible to cover every activity they might be offered. And as the friend is 12, I can well believe that an activity like going into Manchester on public transport wasn't on Polly's mum's radar of what might be the plan for the weekend. It would surprise me a lot if my 12 YO DS was allowed to do that with one of his friends. Well, until reading this thread it would: I guess I should in future give a heads up about this to parents at future sleepovers. Genuinely surprised me that so many people let their 12 YO'd head into major cities, I had no idea.

I often wonder if the people on threads like this talking about checking before letting 14 year olds out of their sight and worrying about them going into town actually only have little children? It can be hard to imagine how grown up a 14 year old is if you spend your days with 5 year olds.........

I spend all day every day in secondary schools and am in contact with a wide array of parents, some of whom would be happy for their 14 year olds to go into town and some of whom would be very worried about their 16 year olds going. Takes all sorts.

Of course teenagers who live in cities travel around city centres, Francis. I haven't seen anyone say that teenagers couldn't or shouldn't be in a city centre without an adult. Only that depending on their geographic location, family income, interests, confidence or maturity level they may or may not be accustomed to doing so.

"14 is massively different to 12, not in terms of years but in terms of development."

My ds has a hobby which means that he spends a lot of time with children older and younger than him. I think the differences at this age are only really noticeable if you're used to thinking in school years. Now he's nearly 16 and some of them are nearly 18 the differences are really starting to show though.