Am I really 'grossly irresponsible'?

[Saggingninja]

My 12 year old daughter's best friend - 'Polly' comes to stay for a few days over half-term. Polly is 14. On the first day, Polly says she would love to go into town (Manchester) with Katie. So I give them money, make sure their phones are charged and send them off.

Both girls are sitting in a cafe having hot chocolate. Polly texts her mum to say she's having fun. Three minutes later Polly's mother calls me. I am 'grossly irresponsible letting two young girls go into town and anything could happen.'

I pointed out that it's half-term, there are likely to be loads of parents and children around and both girls go to school by bus every day. But Polly's mother is convinced their are gangs of Mancunian paedophiles lurking everywhere, so I dash into town to rescue the girls from having a nice time.

I had very overprotective parents who convinced me there were 'bad people' everywhere and kept me in a bubble. I grew up anxious and timid and was determined that my own children would be more confident. And our sons are far more likely to be victims of criminal violence. Our girls are in far more (statistical) danger of being assaulted by someone they know well.

Perhaps I should have told Polly's mother before I let them go. But she (Polly) seemed so pleased and there were two of them. Was I wrong?

I forgot to answer when I'll stop asking, Bertrand.
I think it will be when I've asked half a dozen times in a row about different children of whatever age and been told a bemused 'yes of course'. I got a no to something that has seemed eminently sensible to me the other day, so we're not there yet.

Town v city....dh knows its code now,
City - square mile I don't go there
Town west end/probally shopping will be expensive
South ken Harrods will be very expensive
Over the other side means was London, will be gone a while but probably not shopping.

He likes the last option best

East not was!

I had a DF far worse than Polly's mum and it absolutely blighted my teenage years and caused a huge rift between us. I think it stemmed largely from a fear, bordering on paranoia, of me getting pregnant. He taught at a girls' school with a high teenage pregnancy rate and I think it came from there.
There was a weekly youth club which nearly all my friends went to and I wasn't allowed to go. It was very well run - there was a bit of swearing and a bit of smoking but absolutely no booze or drugs. I used to hate Wednesday mornings because everyone was talking about 'the club' the night before and I was completely left out. I wasn't allowed into town on my own (very quiet boring market town) and sometimes he refused to even allow me out for a walk in broad daylight. I was seriously on the point of running away at one point.
Ironically, I had a cousin whose DF was exactly the same. When she got a boyfriend, her DF insisted that they were never to be alone together at any point and relayed this rule to the BF's parents. She still got pregnant at 15 because they used to sneak off from school at lunchtime and have sex in a field.
I always vowed I would never treat my DCs like this.
DD has been going into central London with friends since she was 12 and alone since she was 13. I was anxious initially but tried to look at it rationally. The chances of her being assaulted or abducted in a crowded area full of tourists and a large Police presence in broad daylight is virtually zero. The main risk is of her having her purse or phone stolen so I have taught her to be ultra careful about this and we have a contingency plan just in case it does happen.
I do worry about terrorism but I'm another one who grew up in the IRA bombing era so try to keep it in perspective.
debret Your 12 year old may me quite happy not being allowed out alone before she's 16 but there may come a time when she isn't in which case you're in for a rocky few years.

Another one here with a paranoid mother! After a while you just don't get invited out anymore, it makes for a miserable, lonely adolescent and a terrible time at school, well until you learn to Lie about your whereabouts!

I think fundamentally any time you let another family supervise your child, you have to accept that while they will (hopefully) do their best they will do some things differently and may have different beliefs and values from you, and this can encompass a million different things. Religion, food, manners, TV, etc. etc. etc. You can't expect that when your child goes to someone else's house that they will be living according to the same rules and habits you do at home.

If a particular rule is crucial for you, I think the onus is on you to either inform the other parents, or drum into your child the idea they can't break the rule just because you're not there.

Can I just clarify roam the streets is something they say round here meaning their kids were out playing somewhere. I have not heard it on mumsnet or this thread. Not sure why it has caused upset.

"Can I just clarify roam the streets is something they say round here meaning their kids were out playing somewhere. I have not heard it on mumsnet or this thread. Not sure why it has caused upset."

Do you not hear how judgemental "roaming the streets" sounds? And how unlike what many of our children do it is?

But you've already established that you think not ever letting your children out of your sight until they are 21 or something makes you a better parent, so I'm not really surprised.

I would check what Polly actually told her mum. I wouldn't be surprised if she embellished the truth a little, especially if she was trying to make a point to her overprotective mother.

What you describe isn't irresponsible, but if she'd spun her mum a slightly more dramatic version of events ("We nearly got on the wrong train! We hid in Starbucks because a man was offering us drugs! We came out the wrong exit of Primark and ended up in a dark alley! We got separated in TKMaxx and there was no phone signal! We nearly got hit by a tram!") I can understand why she might have freaked out a little.

I think there's an interesting debate over the concept of the "right" to make choices for another human being.

At what point does a parent's right to make choices for their offspring give way to that person's right to make their own choices?

All human beings are essentially autonomous. Growing up is the process of choice and responsibility moving from parent to child. Parents only have 100% control when their child is a very tiny baby (and even then not 100% - a parent can't 'choose' when a baby sleeps or fills its nappy for example - so even newborns have some degree of bodily autonomy).

As a parent you have responsibility but that's not the same as having control. And with teens especially negotiating that boundary can be very difficult. It's hard for some parents to realise their children are autonomous human beings, and that they are adults or on their way to becoming adults. God knows there are plenty of parents who think their right to make choices for their children continues even when those children are grown with children of their own.

(BertrandRussell But you've already established that you think not ever letting your children out of your sight until they are 21 or something makes you a better parent, so I'm not really surprised.)

Not really sure why you are so aggressive. I have never said it makes me a better parent nor indicated it did. I shall bow out now my kids are happy, I was a happy teen and my step kids are all happy well adjusted adults so I am not pushing them out to do things they don't want or need to to suit other peoples ideas of ideal parenting.

Roaming the streets is a derogatory phrase where I'm from, it refers to children who are chucked out to amuse themselves with no thought to where they are or what they are doing ds 9 ie either at the park kicking a football about with mates (hoping to spot a clown), walking to a friends house with an x box controller in his hand, or going to the corner shop for me! As he gets older he has the whole city at his disposal but I would still expect him to let me know his plans ie x and I are going to Camden to shop crappy t shirts/mooch about....
His bit of freedom is getting ready for secondary where he will HAVE to negotiate public transport to get to school. I would never shelter/isolate my children the way I was!

My parents and younger sister (15) live near Paris. Speaking to them, it seems that most weekends DSis and her friends go to one another's houses, and most of the time this involves a trip out either to the local shops (to buy ingredients for the recipe they want to try out or supplies for their art project) or into Paris to shop/window shop/go to the cinema - which is about 40 minutes away and requires a bus and then a metro.

I doubt that my parents and the parents of DD's friends phone each other up each time they decide to go out. IMHO it's to be expected that when teenagers go to one another's houses for any length of time (especially a sleepover) they're likely to leave the house at some point - so I would say the onus would be on Polly's mum to make sure that OP is aware that Polly isn't allowed to do so.

I used to go out on my own regularly when I was 14. Generally it was to go shopping or meet friends, occasionally it was to go to a museum or other activity. I wasn't "roaming the streets" because that implies a totally aimless activity, whereas there was always a point to my travels. Even if my mother had given me a lift into town to meet my friends to go to the cinema, I'd have been pretty mortified to think she was waiting for me in a restaurant next door as deblet describes, so that I couldn't go on with my friends after the film to have a coffee or go window shopping or anything.

Deblet, you suggest that your children don't want to go out before they're 16, but the concern is that you started by saying you wouldn't let them. There is a distinct difference. What are you going to do if your 12 year old makes it clear in a couple of years' time that she wants a degree of independence? Are you going to lock her in?

so I am not pushing them out to do things they don't want or need to to suit other peoples ideas of ideal parenting

Nobody said you should push them out.

On your first post you said that yours wouldn't be allowed on their own until they were 16 and then (if I understood it correctly) only when leaving the school.
Quite different.
It's fine if they don't ask to, or are happy being supervised at all times.
It's the attitude that you have already decided, regardless of their wishes.

debret so people really say to you 'Oh, Tommy isn't here, he's out roaming the streets' when they mean that Tommy is out playing with his friends? Yes, of course they do I have hardly seen DD this week but, if asked where she is, I would say that she's gone swimming or gone to the cinema or to Covent Garden. I would never say that she's roaming the streets because she isn't. As Gowgirl said, that is a term generally used for parents who don't know or generally care what their DCs are doing.
I'm sorry but I find it really hard to believe that neither you nor your siblings ever wanted to go anywhere as a teenager without an adult being present, nor do any of your DCs and nor do any of their friends. I know some teens are like this (DS1 is a bit) but it's not the norm.

Incidentally, how old do you think is acceptable to go to Westfield alone or with a friend, 10 mum walk to bus about 15 mins bus ride, stops outside?
I hate shopping with him! Normally make dh go because he faffs....

My 14 year old is currently in Westfield. Goes on train (has to change at Clapham) and first time she went was last summer (14 then too). There are 3 of them & last heard of were in Nando's

Nasty....
What is it with kids and Nandos!

Nando's is like a playpen for teens!

" I am not pushing them out to do things they don't want or need to to suit other peoples ideas of ideal parenting."

There you go again with the judging.

I am not "pushing my son out to do things he doesn't want to do" this evening. He is going, with his friends, to a concert he has been looking forward to for 6 months. Yesterday he went out to buy a jacket he has been saving up for for about the same amount of time.

I would check what Polly actually told her mum. I wouldn't be surprised if she embellished the truth a little, especially if she was trying to make a point to her overprotective mother.

Polly possibly did lie. And possibly was making a point. But that isn't really relevant I don't think, because it doesn't negate the fact that this parent was unhappy with the lack of supervision.

Interesting all the same.

I had never been to Nando's until 3 years ago when DD asked me to take her. I actually love it. Is that wrong?

My 14 year old dd goes into town (either Salisbury or Southampton) with her friends, however Manchester is [braces oneself for Mancunian backlash] a bit rough....