Am I really 'grossly irresponsible'?

[Saggingninja]

My 12 year old daughter's best friend - 'Polly' comes to stay for a few days over half-term. Polly is 14. On the first day, Polly says she would love to go into town (Manchester) with Katie. So I give them money, make sure their phones are charged and send them off.

Both girls are sitting in a cafe having hot chocolate. Polly texts her mum to say she's having fun. Three minutes later Polly's mother calls me. I am 'grossly irresponsible letting two young girls go into town and anything could happen.'

I pointed out that it's half-term, there are likely to be loads of parents and children around and both girls go to school by bus every day. But Polly's mother is convinced their are gangs of Mancunian paedophiles lurking everywhere, so I dash into town to rescue the girls from having a nice time.

I had very overprotective parents who convinced me there were 'bad people' everywhere and kept me in a bubble. I grew up anxious and timid and was determined that my own children would be more confident. And our sons are far more likely to be victims of criminal violence. Our girls are in far more (statistical) danger of being assaulted by someone they know well.

Perhaps I should have told Polly's mother before I let them go. But she (Polly) seemed so pleased and there were two of them. Was I wrong?

Rose I'm a born and bred Londoner and I always saying 'going up to town' to mean going into central London. Ditto my Glaswegian mum and Brummie DH. It's a perfectly normal turn of phrase.

YANBU

It's the kind of freedom that 14 year olds really should have.

If they were young enough that you were allowing an unusual amount of independence, it would have been right to check with the friend's mother first. However, given their age and that it was daytime, it was entirely reasonable not to check - after all, you can't check up before every activity if a child is staying with you!

The only unreasonable behaviour here is from Polly's mother. It's incredibly rude of her to send you that critical, angry and demanding message. If she was upset, she should have rung you and said that she was really quite worried, so sorry to be a trouble when you're being so kind and hosting her daughter, and no referlection on your parenting choices but she didn't feel comfortable with this unsupervised visit so would you mind terribly collecting them - with profuse apologies, and a lot of thanks afterwards.

But getting angry at another parent who's doing you a favour, simply because they don't share your extreme level of parenting paranoia? Unacceptable. She owes you an apology.

My friends parents were like this, al the way up until she left for uni at 18. At 16 we'd be hanging around our town (not doing anything untoward, we were very tame) and at 8pm on the dot her parents would turn up to collect her.

She left for uni and had no idea about personal safety etc. Would meet men on the bus back from lectures, and go to their house for sex. I know ONS are a bit of a uni thing for some (not judging that bit, I've been there) but it got silly and just dangerous, not victim blaming, nothing ever happened to her fortunately but the world can be not very pleasant in some situations and she had no idea what to look for. She made some very unsafe choices and I really think it was down to her parents not allowing her any independence in her teenage years.

I went to boarding school back in the 80s and when we were in what is usually referred to as Year 8 now, we were allowed 'down town' on a Saturday afternoon between the hours of 1 and 4 p.m. I can't actually remember if we had to be in school uniform or not, but I do remember spending a lot of time in Woolworths and WH Smiths mainly. That was all. Never got into any trouble, never got approached by anyone suspicious. We didn't really know about paedophiles back then, but we had heard of 'flashers' and thought that would be the worst of it I think. Never happened though.

I was allowed to go shopping in Croydon on my own at 12 and at 15 slept on the Mall all night waiting for Diana's funeral.... This is nothing. Unless she has reason not to trust her DD.

I have two eight year olds (one of whom is a Brownie ).

While they obviously don't get the bus into town city for Rose on their own there are situations where they are in unfamiliar places without total adult supervision e.g. School trips, Brownie trips to a safari park etc. There are adults around but the kids go about in groups.

Both my 8 yos are drilled in what to do if they have a scary/uncomfortable encounter with an adult. How to say "no" to adults. What to do if they get lost/hurt etc.

We have rules about getting lost (even if out with us) and what kind of adults are "safest".

So yes, Rose by the time my DC are 12 (let alone 14) I would absolutely expect they would know what to do if mugged/lost/frightened. Because as a responsible parent I'd have taught them.

There are different ways to keep your child safe. Raising them to make sensible decisions, how to risk assess and contingency plan is one way.

Does anyone refer to their local, large metropolis as "the city" (Unless they're talking about the Square Mile)

Local shopping Town a) Enfield

Local shopping town b) "The Green"
London for stuff you can't get/do in a) or b) "Town".

Otherwise you sound like a tourist. Innit?

Gerda no one I know. Town every time.

I've just debated this with DH and DS1 who is 13 as I'd started to worry that I'm a bit Victorian parent (which is something I wanted to avoid). We also live about a 20 minute train ride out of Manchester and there is no way I'd let DS go there unaccompanied! In fairness , he has about a 3 minute walk to school and a 10 minute walk to a large out of town complex with cinema/bowling/Starbucks so has never even needed to get a bus. I wouldn't be worried about gangs or paedophiles so much , just that he would get totally lost. I think every parent has to gauge their own child's level of common sense and their previous experience to make a decision and in this case , the decision was taken away from her so I can understand why she was annoyed. If she wouldn't allow her daughter to go at 14 then with OP's daughter being only 12 it wouldn't have crossed her mind that this might be on the agenda and that she would need to expressly forbid it.
As for those using the examples of air cadets or colleges with 9pm finish times, as parents you had the choice not to send your children there if you weren't comfortable with it, Pollys mother did not get any choice and fwiw I think Polly knew full well what her Mum would have said if asked.

I go to Manchester every week and have done since I was 12 (I'm 37 now), my son aged 14 travels into and through town to get to his dad's every week and has done so for the last 2 years.

Manchester is not scary, it's no different than when I was a kid. Well, it looks different and Picc Gardens has changed - now, in the 90s THAT was scary.... druggies, dealers, drunks, punks, muggers.

I now live on the met line about 25mins outside of town and would assume that my son's friends have been to town themselves before now so wouldn't ask.

Yanbu.

I was allowed to go into Dublin from a far outlying suburb with friends from age 13 or so, back in the late 70s and early 80s. Going to Dublin was called 'going into town' even though it's the capital city.

I would have called Polly's mother to make sure she knew of the plans and they were ok by her, especially when it was Polly who came up with the idea of going into town.

There may be more than overprotectiveness involved here on the part of Polly's mother. A child who tries to get permission from someone else's mother for something she may have known was not permitted may be a child whose mother does not trust her, and with good reason. She also brought your daughter along and I would be wondering if you were both used by Polly. I wonder also if there's a running fight between Polly and her mum, with Polly seeking (appropriate) freedom and her mum doing the kneejerk reaction thing. I suspect you got caught in the crossfire here.

Otoh, what did Polly hope to achieve by texting her mum to say she was having fun? That seems either a very naive or a very reckless thing to do if she was trying to get away with something. Either way - not sharp, and maybe shouldn't be out on her own?

Another aspect of this is the fact that a 14 yo is friends with a 12 yo. I may be the odd woman out here, but I think this is odd. My recollection of 14 yos who were friends with anyone younger is that they were rejects from the 14 yo clique. Maybe Polly is considered too much of a baby by the other 14 yos or maybe her mum has killed all hope of friendship with her peers by refusing to let her socialise independently with them.

I agree that the only way to develop very necessary street smarts is to actually get out there and practice, and I think this other mum is an idiot to be so concerned with pedophiles, etc. that she is hampering her daughter's learning process.

The mum needs a grip.
I going in town (Bolton) on my own from the age of 11.
When I was 15 I used to take my 10 year old cousin to Manchester with me on a few occasions. We got the train and went shopping/out for some dinner/to the IMAX.

I feel a bit sorry for this girl. Overbearing mothers are a pita.

"Not sure what people kids actually do if they go out on their own"

Well, my 15 year old went into London today with a friend-an hour in the train. They went to Top Man at Oxford Circus, ds bought a jacket he's been saving up for. Then they went to see Dr Strange, and got the 6.30 train home. Tomorrow he's going to The Roundhouse to see Honne, and will be getting the 23.55 train home.

He quite often goes into out local town, either alone or with friends. They go to Cafe Nero, spend ages in Waterstones, look at the other shops and come home. Or go on to youth theatre or some other activity.

Southerners talk about going to London as "going to town"or "up to town

When I was a kid growing up in Cornwall we used to say we were 'going down town'

My oldest DD has been going with a friend to our nearest city by bus and train since she was 12. Yesterday I went to a local town with a friend and we let our DD's aged 10 and 11 spend a couple of hours together whilst we had lunch. They looked around some clothes shops and bought a drink and cake together. We were saying how lovely it is that they are an age where they feel confident to do that. They had a mobile with them and knew they could contact us at any time. Having said that, I am usually quite careful to ask other parents whether they are ok with stuff as different families have different rules and it can cause problems.

Good point about why Polly texted her mum. I think it is up to more overprotective parents to get their child to contact them before doing anything "forbidden" or to warn the host parents that they don't want their child doing specific things that others are allowed to do.

My dd is 13 and friends with a Polly who's 14. (same academic year). I am always hearing stories from my dd about her mum being cats bum mouth about what other parents in the group are allowed to do. (latest one is showing a non-horror 12A movie at a sleepover)She is apparently seething about lots of things like this but hasn't brought it up with any of the parents.

Math makes some good points re Pollys motivation. Could it be that Polly is a bit sleekit (sly and devious)

She does, but that still doesn't explain why the mother didn't say anything to the OP and called her grossly irresponsible.

I think you should have checked first, as all mums have different rules. But if mum has to be there every time Polly goes into town - and she's 14!!! The poor girl must be cringing. Or if she isn't allowed into town without mum, which sounds to be the case, then thats sad. Overbearing parents can find themselves squeezed out soon enough - child reaches 18 and eg decides to go to Uni at the other end of the country, so they can get breathing space. Ive known that to happen.

Still, whats done is done, her mother is in no way teaching her DD to be street-smart but what can you do

It doesn't unless she prefers to blame others for her own or her daughter's faults.

Children of overbearing parents tend to be quite sly ime. They also (maybe for good reaso) don't tell their parents a fraction of what goes on in their lives or the lives of their schoolmates, for fear of a silly ott reaction and even more rules being imposed or out of fear of an angry rant - some over protective parents' default setting is 'prolonged angry rant'. The children often end up in situations that are way over their heads.

And the overbearing parents do not see themselves as others see them, or see reality in a sensible way - someone who is convinced of paedophiles around every corner is not open to reason.

They would never join the dots and understand that it is their over strictness and over reactiveness that caused a young teen to seize her chance for a little freedom and fun. It's much easier to indulge the feeling that they are the best parents ever and be angry with other people, or indulge their paranoia and blame the outside forces that they fear.