To continue to wonder who is happy with where Brexit is heading

[Bearbehind]

Whilst I'm sure Leavers will undoubtedly think AIBU the last thread filled up so here's another 1000 opportunities to discuss what you think about where Brexit is heading.

smallfox2002
Yeah but you can't explain why.

Can but have not the slightest interest in doing so on here

Methinks you protest too much.

If you could you would, instead you decide to come along and tell us how happy you are.

I am feeling scared after coming across so many Leavers stubbornly refusing to engage. Why is this happening?

Can but have not the slightest interest in doing so on here

FFS are we in the school playground?

Can so but don't want to.

It fascinates me the number of Leavers who insist on posting things that contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation but they come back time and time again and do the same thing.

It just makes them look like they don't actually have anything worthwhile to say.....oh hang on

When I read about the sheer chaos of this www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/24/belgium-eu-ultimatum-canada-trade-deal-ceta-wallonia I breathe a sigh of relief we will not be subject to this in the future.

I seriously thought you were being sarcastic there.

That is exactly what we will be subject to. Both initially when we try to negotiate trade deals upon leaving and later if we try to alter them.

We already have the best trade deal in the world by being part of the EU. Why on earth would we want to increase the difficulty of negotiating trade deals?

a referendum that was clearly signposted as advisory suddenly became seen as binding. (me)
Utter rubbish. David Cameron said it would be binding, he said he would trigger a50 the day after. He couldn't have been more direct! (wendy)

And yet...you're wrong. The referendum was legally speaking advisory only. Cameron is (was) not the emperor of the universe and was not in a position to change that, however 'direct' he may have been. It was his choice to make it advisory, in fact. The government could have chosen to hold a legally binding referendum if they'd wanted, but they didn't. If they had it would probably have included a quorum requirement, which would undoubtedly have been more than 52%.

So that's ironic.

David Cameron said it would be binding, he said he would trigger a50 the day after. He couldn't have been more direct!

Two statements of fact there:

1. The referendum was binding
2. A50 would be triggered the day after.

Since (2) didn't happen, why is (1) any more or less truthful ? In fact, it's possible to take the point of view that since (2) didn't happen, (1) cannot be true either.

and the fact that no matter what Cameron said, the act which made it possible for us to have the referendum states that the result would be advisory. So legally it is advisory.

Fact. End of.

You asked a question - I answered it.

Totally agree Lurking. Some people just get into a froth about 'the will of the people' when it suits them

Well I think if you were to state you are happy then as the vast majority of the thread has answered negatively, then you should elucidate with reference to specifics on why you are so happy.

However, it follows your form on these matters. Turn up, say that your over joyed, add nothing to the discussion.

At least you're consistent Rorty.

ClaudiaApfelstrudel

care to enlighten us as to this 'complete fuck up' in a bit more detail??

There is so much evidence I hardly know where to start, and only the most brainwashed zealot would claim otherwise. Even before the vote the Remain campaign pretty much took the line that 'yes, we know the EU is appalling, but on balance we are better off staying in and try and bring about reform from inside'. I'm not entirely sure when it was transformed into this magical Narnia-like paradise I am reading about on this thread.

The biggest thing is the Euro, even the people who invented it have admitted it's a disaster here and here. It has condemned the southern economies to almost unparalleled levels of youth unemployment, perpetual austerity and crippling debt, with no chance of manipulating their own currency in order to address the problem. It will be interesting to see what the Greeks do a their next general election. They, quite literally, have nothing to lose by bailing out of
the Euro in my opinion.

Read Yannis Varoufakis's book 'And the Weak Suffer What They Must'. Here is a quote from one of the reviews on Amazon:-

Essentially, his view is that the EU, as currently constituted is a democracy-free cartel created for the benefit of the Central European heavy manufacturing cartels, which the French have constantly sought to dominate adminstratively. The result is a technocratic dictatorship with no democratic legitimacy which sees adherence to badly thought out rules as the most important feature of its operation and is no only happy to pour suffering on countries which offend them, but actively to pursue it. (Hence the title)

Ironically, this view of the EU is almost identical to that of Daniel Hannan, the Conservative, Eurosceptic MEP. His address to the Oxford Union on the subject is also worth a look . A particular gem is when he says 'Saying you support the EU because you like Europe, is like saying you support FIFA because you like football'.

There is more (plenty, plenty more), but HTH.

Go over to the EU referendum area FFS!!!!!

Music How about you just don't open this if you're not interested. Most referendum discussions are in the referendum thread. This one was deliberately placed here for a wider audience. If you go through the AIBU topic, most other threads could easily be placed in another topic. I find it unusual that most people don't want to discuss such a momentous event, but clearly some people don't. I would expect them not to click on the thread though!

But this is how the 52 % have been sidelined for decades!

Except that they haven't. In the 1975 Referendum, 33% voted No.

No one ever pretended the EU was perfect, yet coming out of it is likely to have far worse concequences than remaining.

Yannis Varoufakis' is a great advocate of remaining in the EU and bringing about change:

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/yanis-varoufakis-why-we-must-save-the-eu
www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-yanis-varoufakis-john-mcdonnell-join-left-wingers-positive-remain-rally-1562452

So I'm quite surprised to see you making an appeal to authority by invoking him.

Whilst nothing is ever perfect, the EU was the better option that the utter clusterfuck we have now.

Oh and I also love how all you leavers bring up youth unemployment in Southern Europe as a reason for leaving. Well neither us leaving or being in the EU would make a difference to that, the only thing that will is increased economic growth, or the collapse of the Euro. Brexit will not save the UK from the massive impact of the chaos to the world's economy that such an event would bring, so again this doesn't justify a leave vote.

You've then gone on to name check Daniel Hannan, who not only is an unrepentant free marketeer follower of Ayn Rand, who has displayed a terifying ignorance of the trade deals that the EU has and how they benefit us ( check out his Chilean wine gaff).

Finally the youth unemployment thing? If you voted to leave you have basically voted for an economic downturn here, and there will be one this is just the phoney war stage of brexit, if you cared so much about unemployment here you wouldn't have voted for brexit.

Any significant cost/benefit analysis as well as a risk/probability one show the massive net present benefits to the UK of being in the EU.
Oh and finally, you talk of the EU as a cartel? Go take a look at who is setting up our future trade deals, yup its those same free marketeers who would quite happily sell of anything to their corporate cartel cronies.

Except that they haven't. In the 1975 Referendum, 33% voted No.

That was 41 years ago - I'd suggest that half the people who voted are dead, while at least half the EU2016 electorate weren't able to vote then because they were too young/not born.

Idle speculation (= CBA to Google ) makes me wonder what analysis of those that voted in both EU75 and EU2016 would reveal ?

I'm in the 'not yet dead' category, Lurking, and voted the same way both times.
Ergo, 100% of those polled said 'yes' both times!

That was 41 years ago - I'd suggest that half the people who voted are dead, while at least half the EU2016 electorate weren't able to vote then because they were too young/not born.

I'm not dead. But you have just destroyed the argument that 52 % have been sidelined for decades! because they have either died, or were not born. So of those who voted no in 1975, assuming that half are dead now, 16.5% have been sidelined for decades.

But you have just destroyed the argument that 52 % have been sidelined for decades!

I didn't realise it could be saved ? What with it being utter bollocks from start to finish.

Also, I have seen it suggested that we needed this referendum because people under the age of (say) 50 haven't had their say, being too young (or not born) when the last one was held - there was a subtext that these poor under-50s had therefore been oppressed by the EU dictatorship that they never voted for and at last had their chance to escape.

Ironically though, if we were so concerned about the opinions of the under-50s, they voted rather firmly to Remain .

there was a subtext that these poor under-50s had therefore been oppressed by the EU dictatorship that they never voted for and at last had their chance to escape.

And yet these same people will become extremely angry if any Remainer tries to complain that the current under 18s are unhappy with this result in general. we decided for their future and all that along with dont you dare insinuate I don't have the best of my children in my mind. Honestly

I have just watched clips of PMQs though. Looks like Corbyn did floor May. "Brexit = will of the people = public has spoken = bullcrap" she was one step away from stuttering.

Sorry, but it's an insult to all those that have fought -and died - for universal suffrage to suggest that there has been any sidelining of any marginally important issue in UK politics. All political parties are open to all, and if enough people are concerned about an issue they can either generate a policy in the political party of their choice or fuck off and form their own (hello ! UKIP !!).

To peddle a myth - a dangerous myth - that millions of people (a proportion of which could not be bothered to get off their arses and vote in any election previously) is going down the Richard Nixon "silent majority" propaganda path, and add a faux legitimacy to the current wave of "send brown people, and people with funny names back home" racism. The reason those views have never been granted mainstream support is that they are abhorrent to the real majority, and therefore never gained any support.

The truth is very few people in the UK over the past FOUR DECADEs have been "sidelined" except by their own apathy, ignorance and prejudice. And I am finding it increasingly hard to have any sympathy. The cherry on the cake are all the people who had never voted before EU2016 queuing up to bleat about "having their say" - where were they in 2015, 2010, 2005, 2001, 1997, 1992, 1987, 1983, 1979 etc ?