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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To continue to wonder who is happy with where Brexit is heading

999 replies

Bearbehind · 25/10/2016 15:44

Whilst I'm sure Leavers will undoubtedly think AIBU the last thread filled up so here's another 1000 opportunities to discuss what you think about where Brexit is heading.

OP posts:
BoinkAlongQuietly · 28/10/2016 22:03

Elements, what a horrid way to describe immigrants.

Well that's ironic.

Elements was merely rephrasing what was said in plain English. Confused

autumnintheair · 28/10/2016 22:05

was going to say, you'd think if Frank Field was so hard and accurately at work on behalf of his constituents he'd have loads of evidence that there are all these immigrants in the woodwork that are both invisible and easily found taking up jobs and housing

I think he does know this - because he is out in his constituency working hard on behalf of them not sat behind a desk merely looking at figures based on inaccuracy!

MagikarpetRide · 28/10/2016 22:06

That's the point though, if you can't rely on immigrant data then you can't rely on them being the cause of worsening austerity hit services either.

Frank Field suggests, in that quote, that they are causing an excess drain and that getting rid of unlimited immigration (at least he uses a more accurate term) would ease this. However the figures can't back this up either due to inaccuracy or in general and he is ignoring the issues surrounding austerity he himself brought up as being a problem in the future, so yes he comes across as bigoted.

crazycatguy · 28/10/2016 22:07

Ah I knew it wouldn't be long until someone trotted out the 'stop whining' argument.

People that wanted to leave whined for 43 years. We can justifiably tell people complaining that we are leaving to shut up in 2059.

WinchesterWoman · 28/10/2016 22:11

Boink I understand however my issue is with numbers and in fact I feared a highly tolerant nation was being taken for granted. I want to see house prices and rents come down and employers have to work for their staff, not take them for granted. I will take a hit because I know others will benefit.

autumnintheair · 28/10/2016 22:14

No I am sorry Magik I cannot accept that. I am sorry I thought all this was a given and so far down this Brexit road, with so many debates and articles and all the rest having been churned over I would have thought by now, people were up to speed on Immigration numbers.
If you do any light googling you will easily find information from councils who report to government that the head count in their boroughs are wildly mismatched with actual government funding.
In many cases the government ( blair) had head counts going down when in fact the truth was rapid increases, leaving a perilous gap in funding.

If you knew this you could understand Franks plea and point.
You have a thousand very poor people in your ward, they are struggling, and you add hundreds more very poor people from another poor country to compete for resources, on top of that - due to no counting, resources are cut! Because government thinks numbers are shrinking, on top of that we have CC on top of that - we have austerity. And people wonder why we now have food banks. Confused.

TheElementsSong · 28/10/2016 22:18

what a horrid way to describe immigrants.

What, you've been stating repeatedly that we can't tell where or how many immigrants are in the country, hence they could be causing any negative effect you fancy anywhere you fancy - GP queues, school shortages, job shortages, wage depression, poverty, crime, disease, tidal surges - but you're going to dance around getting all faux-outraged because I've summed it up in a shorter way?

(Or what Boink said)

WinchesterWoman · 28/10/2016 22:19

Well put Autumn. He is someone who has seen it at the sharp end for years.

MagikarpetRide · 28/10/2016 22:20

If immigration figures are inaccurate they are inaccurate, in all ways - it doesn't work in a pick and choose way.

Frank Field ignores austerity going forward. He tips to it as something that's happened, but ignores it going forward in favour of blaming immigrants. I'd have more respect for him had he continued to use a double edged argument. But he did, thereby shifting the blame off something he could actually have helped his constituents out with.

WinchesterWoman · 28/10/2016 22:23

You don't have to be an economist to understand the laws of supply and demand. Field saw that his constituents understood and did not like what they themselves saw in the future.

MagikarpetRide · 28/10/2016 22:54

The anti immigrant thing isn't always economic though. Perception of the different in bad times often leads to scapegoating.

Since austerity has hit there's been a swell of anti immigrant feeling in my home town, directed largely at a group of people they had no issue with pre austerity. Big complaints about not being able to get:
Drs apps (a surgery closed down and was never replaced)
School place issues (they closed down two schools whilst expanding the town massively, most people thought it was better to get rid of extra costs without thinking of the future, and now it's here they're upset)
'Polish' people hanging about in a certain area (used to be heroin addicts - some of us see it as a massive improvement to have people just speaking a different language rather than have needles and other paraphernalia about)
etc. Etc.

GraceGrape · 28/10/2016 23:04

The hard-left argument for leaving the EU, espoused by Frank Field and others is interesting. He certainly has a point about government underfunding. However, studies, such as last year's one by the Centre for Economic Performance, have consistently shown that immigration has not had a negative impact on wages, even in low and unskilled areas, although there was a slight impact on unemployment in low and unskilled sectors in some areas with high levels of immigration, although this was considered to be extremely small. I suppose it's all about perception though.

The EU is by no means a bastion of social justice, but is true that there has been an increase in regulation in this area since we signed up to the social chapter. IMO this doesn't go nearly far enough, but it certainly exceeds any laws we had in this area previously. The same could be said of environmental regulations.

I remain to be convinced that Brexit will mean that, free from the shackles of the EU, the government will implement lots of policies to reduce inequality and improve social justice. We will, after all, continue to be governed for the foreseeable future by a pretty right -wing Tory bunch who are far more likely to favour less regulation and lower working conditions.

Just musing, I suppose if the fundamental reason behind the Brexit vote is, as oft-reported, a protest vote from a swathe of the population who have felt ignored by successive governments, to my mind the best solution might be a soft Brexit that minimises damage to the economy (and real people's wages and living standards) alongside a concerted effort by the government to make policy decisions that actually benefit the less well-off. I'm not sure how to square it all with the negative perception of immigration though. If all the data and statistics show that immigration benefits us economically, but people don't feel this, what do you do?

Wow, after typing all that it's made me really glad that I'm not in charge of managing Brexit!

GraceGrape · 28/10/2016 23:11

I see I have cross-posted with lots of people. True that the actual counting of immigration figure is problematic. Hard to espouse any kind of argument if you don't have an accurate statistical picture. I did read somewhere that one reason for discrepancies in figures was quite large numbers of EU workers coming here for short periods (under 3 months) then going home. I guess this could be explained by seasonal workers. Obviously there could be inaccuracies in this type of counting too.

Valentine2 · 28/10/2016 23:19

this thread has moved fast. I just came back to check and so many pages. Smile
Bear when you said "The LSE carried out a survey which proved most people don't want to control immigration if it will cost them personally, this is the same principle.", please give me a reference of this study.
Thanks

Valentine2 · 28/10/2016 23:23

winchesterwoman
No matter how you try to dress it up,Tory conference was decidedly and aggressively anti immigrant. They can't be anti immigration I think. Thats not practical for them. But to try and entice UKIP, Tory conference did try to mainstream the UKIP ideas. That's hardly one example. I don't think anyone has forgotten Zac Goldsmith and his mayor campaign yet?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 28/10/2016 23:45

I wish someone would answer frumpets question

I thought it was a good one

And nobody ever answers similar questions on this forum

Ever (might have once but in that case i missed it )

Valentine2 · 29/10/2016 00:26

larry
Do you want to have some words with autumn about Frank
Field's article?
it also explains what kind of insidious stuff Corbyn is fighting now. If one of his own MPs is writing this kind of thing in mainstream press, I don't even want to imagine how deep the problem is gone.

boink
" it is very misguided and detracts the conversation from the real problem - the vast investment in the protection and preservation of the elite. It's ok, neither of us is likely to change our opinion."
Your last sentence says it for me too.
I have quoted Hend Amry here earlier: she said something like "now you have seen your Trump, you might understand Mid East now". I think UK can understand Mid East too now that we have had our Farage and Johnson and May and Frank Field.
All you have to do is to oppress the people so much that the hunger confuses them mightily. Then you can sell them anything and they will buy. I feel like crying right now.

larrygrylls · 29/10/2016 07:05

Valentine,

I think Brexit is income distribution neutral. I do believe having immense immigration from countries with 20% of our GDP per capita (and who are happy to work for sub minimum wage) has made it easier for employers to exploit the low paid.

However, I also believe that to compete globally we will have to have globally competitive labour costs or upskill dramatically. Sadly not everyone can upskill, both given their raw cognitive ability and our not fit for purpose education (and parenting) system.

In a world where machines can do more and more we need to consider carefully how to help the less fortunate whilst still provide sufficient motivation for the hard working. I am afraid I don't think anyone (least of all me) has the solution to that one.

WinchesterWoman · 29/10/2016 07:13

I didn't answer because I was irritated by the chortling.

Anyway I've answered lots of times. I think we will see a new normal, reducing the inequality gap. Simply by the laws of supply and demand. The government will be able better to plan the allocation of resources, specifically housing, health and education. Claiming the numbers are controlled is a huge lie: they are unpredictable. Inside the EU we risk a break down of the social contract and the trusts between a government and its people and between income levels of people. A nation is more than numbers. I would rather live a normal life, where my children can afford a house and their education is dependable, than have an unpredictable a

WinchesterWoman · 29/10/2016 07:25

And risky future. This way we can plan. I do not want to be part of a supranational state. I just don't. I don't trust Eu leaders: they have sacrificed southern Europe for their own survival. Events since June 23 prove we are right not to trust them. They are vindictive. They would risk the prosperity of their own people to ensure their survival. There is no trust when your supposed allies are self destructively stubborn.

I am not poor: immigration benefits me, probably. How lovely to enjoy the vibrancy of different cultures and at the same time a ready supply of workers whose wages haven't gone up for ten years because there's always someone else to do it cheaper.

Lovely for well off people: not lovely if you are the one with driven down wages coupled with a struggle to find a decent inexpensive rented place because demand for accommodation is so high.

So I voted for everyone. I voted for my children's vote to actually matter in the future, and I voted to get away from the imminent disaster that is the eurozone.

larrygrylls · 29/10/2016 08:17

Ww,

I think you make some very good points in your last post.

surferjet · 29/10/2016 08:25

Yep, great post WW, but leavers were saying almost identical things on these threads 4 months ago straight after the result - falls on deaf ears where remainers are concerned ( bizarrely)

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 29/10/2016 08:30

Thank you winchester

I appreciate what you are saying surfer but i havent seen all the threads

And there is no way i am going through them again [again] (although it might be interesting as a hindsight excercise)

Quite understand the reluctance to keep repeating yourself Smile

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 29/10/2016 08:32

Thats supposed to be a grin

Sad
morningrunner · 29/10/2016 08:33

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