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AIBU?

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Original poster

To continue to wonder who is happy with where Brexit is heading

999 replies

Bearbehind · 25/10/2016 15:44

Whilst I'm sure Leavers will undoubtedly think AIBU the last thread filled up so here's another 1000 opportunities to discuss what you think about where Brexit is heading.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 27/10/2016 00:36

1. Maaaassive lead on Labour in all polls and increased cofidende in a Tory PM who came after refreshments result

But the Tories are not doing well in local elections, although that might be because Tory voters are staying away.

2. UKIP is where Labour was a year ago with all the infighting and punches
I think UK is worse - I don't think any Labour fights ended up with someone in hospital.

3. Osborne is safe and so is Cameron and no one is going to ask what their performance was
Osborne, yes. Cameron, no, completely history now and joins the ranks of Neville Chamberlain and Anthony Eden, IMO.

5. ..... And that the referendum wasn't her idea in the first place and belonged to Cameron and Co and they honourably resigned, didn't they?
Osborne was given the old heave ho. So she could have made a potential enemy there, one who is just biding his time.

Valentine2 · 27/10/2016 00:37

peregrina
No I think a big group of Tories looking after each other. 1975 was long before I was around so I haven't got a clue. I am of the generation who though we have Europe at our doorstep. It brought massive opirtunities in my field of work. We really do have some of the world leading labs in my field. All because of the collaborations. All that is going down the drain apparently.
On the bright side, I now understand the truly terrible class differences and the existence of a deep unsatisfaction in sections of our society that were not this visible before. My bubble is gone but at least we know what we are facing and are fighting it together.

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 00:42

But make no mistake her current stance is about shoring up her position.
I hope it leads to her downfall, but as I have said before on these threads, it's a case of be careful what you wish for. A lot of people voted Leave to give Cameron a bloody nose, thinking all the while that he would pull off a win, as he managed to do with the last election. Oops, they achieved that, but it didn't really give the result they wanted.

I do think Cameron might actually have been a more able negotiator of Brexit than any of the current bunch.

Valentine2 · 27/10/2016 00:44

But the Tories are not doing well in local elections, although that might be because Tory voters are staying away.
Can you please post some references to this point as I want to read this.

Osborne was given the old heave ho. So she could have made a potential enemy there, one who is just biding his time.

I wish I could say something else but it has now become clear to me that this major point ( he was booted off and didn't resign) is not going to stay in the memory of the voters that Tories are trying to attract.

MagikarpetRide · 27/10/2016 00:46

But the Tories are not doing well in local elections, although that might be because Tory voters are staying away.

In all honesty I treat local and general elections differently. I've never lived anywhere where the local was representative of general anyway. I could have lived in very random places though. Unless you're talking by elections in which case please ignore me!

MagikarpetRide · 27/10/2016 00:48

Osborne was given the old heave ho. So she could have made a potential enemy there, one who is just biding his time.
Ok so I'm not sleeping tonight. I now have images of Osborne going eeexxxxxcceeellent Monty Burns style. Thanks peregrina Smile

Valentine2 · 27/10/2016 00:50

I hope it leads to her downfall, but as I have said before on these threads, it's a case of be careful what you wish for.
Exactly! I really wish she stays and dies a slow death at the hand of a stronger Labour Party+LIB DEM combined in some form of alliance. I will respect her for that actually. Like it or not, I feel slightly happy that there is no apparent way of the Tory side pretending to be on the side of the Remain. Like magik said, even staunch Tory supporters looks surprised at the scale of this fuckup.

Peregrina · 27/10/2016 01:00

Info on by elections
I agree that what happens at a local level is not indicative of what will happen in a General Election.

I think the Lib Dems have won 20 seats since May/June, at District council/ CC level, and the Tories have lost some, as have Labour, but fewer. So it doesn't exactly tie in with May's apparently huge lead in the polls, nor is it quite as bad as the press make out for Corbyn. The gratifying thing is that UKIP aren't doing particularly well, although some would say that this is because the Tory party are now doing their job for them.

I suspect it's moderate Tories and Labour going to the Lib Dems. I met some ex-Conservatives the other week, who had joined the Lib Dems because they were furious about the racist xenophobic tone at the Tory party conference. This was no longer the party they believed in. I wonder how many more are like them.

Valentine2 · 27/10/2016 01:06

The gratifying thing is that UKIP aren't doing particularly well, although some would say that this is because the Tory party are now doing their job for them.
I am under no illusion. I think it's true. Angry

Valentine2 · 27/10/2016 01:07

Thanks for the link

MagikarpetRide · 27/10/2016 01:11

I'm glad to hear that peregrina. I've been mourning the loss of the middle ground. We've hit this weird phase where the middle ground are odd lefties and the lefties are dangerous radicals. Corbyn doesn't help that in some way but then people say the referendum was about people not listening and I feel the labour party need to listen to their members saying 'we don't want you to be the middle ground/slightly right party'. Maybe those politicians should make their own party or go strengthen the lib dems. We need a bloody middle ground, now more than ever.

larrygrylls · 27/10/2016 07:10

Was chatting to senior member of largest Japanese bank yesterday. Zero plans to relocate from London although might open small office in Europe for booking of certain trades.

larrygrylls · 27/10/2016 07:12

Re politics, I have no idea why moderate Labour don't join up with lib dems. They already have a party machine in place and it would be easy to go for pro Europe central ground. They could probably even change name to New Labour.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 27/10/2016 07:30

Was chatting to senior member of largest Japanese bank yesterday. Zero plans to relocate from London although might open small office in Europe for booking of certain trades.

Or maybe they didn't tell you the whole story for fear of you virtually name check them and post their comments on social media- which you've done straight away. Hmm

Even moving 'certain trades' is a problem if every bank does it in order to retain access to the EU.

OP posts:
MagikarpetRide · 27/10/2016 07:42

I think there's a difference between the banks completely leaving Britain, which they wont as there'll still be an industry here, and shifting significant portions of the businesses out, which is likely as there are large portions of banking in the UK solely to get access to the EU so will become superfluous. The second scenario is massively damaging on its own.

MirabelleTree · 27/10/2016 08:00

Quite a few of my friends' parents' (and my Dad) voted leave because they say that when they voted back in the 70's they did not vote for what the EU had become and I totally get that.

It's not on to call them stupid and I say that as an incredibly pissed off Remainer.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 27/10/2016 08:03

The thing is mirabelle it might not be what they voted for 40 years ago but that doesn't make leaving the better option.

It always comes back to Leave voters not even remotely factoring in the impact of actually leaving.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 27/10/2016 08:19

Bear,

You have no interest in facts when people give them to you unless they agree with your gloom and doom view.

You always ask for facts yet when you are given them you make passive aggressive remarks about confidentiality.

Make your mind up. You want facts or do you want to look up at a falling conker and declare the sky is falling in?

Original poster
Bearbehind · 27/10/2016 08:24

larry I was questioning your judgement on virtually naming your source on a public website?

I then went on to say that even certain trades leaving is s problem.

Would you like to offer an explanation why that isn't the case?

OP posts:
MagikarpetRide · 27/10/2016 08:24

larry your example isn't a fact, its an anecdote and can't be backed up.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 27/10/2016 08:27

Meant to add, I wasn't being passive aggressive- I think it's bang out of order to post details of conversation like that on social media unless it's very abstract.

And it's not 'fact' it's you relaying a conversation in which either party may or may not be telling the true story.

OP posts:
larrygrylls · 27/10/2016 08:28

Magik,

It is something I ascribe a high probability to as I know the source. Granted, from your perspective it is anecdote as I could be making it up.

Bear,

You can question my judgment as much as you like. Firstly, it is not confidential. Secondly, if you knew anything about how bank size is measured, I have left sufficient ambiguity in my statement.

frumpet · 27/10/2016 08:54

I voted remain for purely selfish reasons , I honestly couldn't think of one single way that being in the EU had had a negative impact on my life to date , or on those that I like , love or cherish ( some of whom voted leave !)

The problem I have encountered when discussing the referendum with people in RL , is that the vast majority of Leave voters come across in much the same way as people who participate in MLM/pyramid schemes , there is a lot of Yay ! the most fantastic opportunity of your life , so excited , living the dream etc , but when you ask why , how and how much , they suddenly become a teensy bit guarded with the facts and start slinging negativity meme's around like there is no tomorrow Grin

WrongTrouser · 27/10/2016 08:54

Valentine Thanks for your reply to me and for taking the time to try to explain your position.

Can you not see there is the world of difference between saying

"I think you have made a massive mistake and voted in a way which will be damaging to your children and the younger generation" which is what you said in your most recent reply to me

and saying

"You deliberately voted in a way which will damage your children etc, and you did that because you are a poor and uncaring parent of the sort we see discussed on the relationships board" which is what you have said previously on this thread.

The first is a reasonable point of view. I disagree with it but it's a perfectly decent argument.

The second is wrong and unreasonable on so many levels and I hope that if you think about it you can see this.

MirabelleTree · 27/10/2016 09:23

I do understand that Bear but they saw it as a way to put right what happened before and I understand why they voted that way, having felt for years they made a vote for something that then became something else. They were voting on a point of principle which doesn't make them stupid in my view and to tell them they are will entrench them further into their view.

Personally I've given up trying to discuss it with people in my family who were in favour of leaving. I've said before that my Brother is complaining he is £800 a month worse up post referendum due to the pound. He said he is really cross that Europe is talking of punishing us. I said that they always were going to and that is something DH and I had taken into account with our vote. All it has done is make him take the view 'how can you want you be part of that' and he is taking the view more than ever that Leave was the right vote.