'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

I agree, OP. And more often than not these days there is no stigma to admitting you slept with someone. A lot more stigma to admit you have been raped.

Like mostly said, boys need to be educated that there are many 'signs' that a woman is not consenting, despite maybe agreeing to begin with. They should stop or refrain if they have anything less than an active partner who is clearly enjoying it.

Girls also need to be educated that sex is not something they will automatically enjoy and that if they don't like what is suggested or what is happening, they shouldn't grin and bear it, they should say 'stop'. This is the hardest thing to do when so many men are brought up thinking that all women like missionary or all women like doggy style or whatever they've picked up from various dodgy sources. Girls need to be able to say 'no, that doesn't interest me, I want just foreplay or I want x, y or z.'

I also think we should be teaching our girls and boys that whilst sex is great if you are with a like-minded soul, if you have a one night stand or go to bed with someone you hardly know you aren't likely to have anything particulary exciting or of your interest as you have no idea how the other person enjoys sex. Part of this for girls is to know that some men like to have sex 'to' a woman rather than 'with' one and to recognise the signs and get out of there quick. This would stop much of the 'was it rape?' sort of situations, but sadly not the men who would like to force you no matter what or who drug you or attack you whilst you are drunk.

Both girls and boys need to know all the information about sexual relationships before they get to 15 so they know how to treat each other and what to expect. This won't stop those anti-social individuals who enjoy the power of forcing sex, but it would help with those times when a girl/woman feels uncomfortable but unable to stop what is happening. We need to remove the pressures of expectations.

And I say that as someone who has many shady experiences due to me not feeling able to assert what I wanted.

It's an awful saying. I know someone who uses it to describe her own rape. It was rape, she described it as rape and I saw her afterwards when she named it as such. But after a few weeks she started saying it had to have been regretted sex. Partly because she couldn't face tte fact she'd been raped and partly because of the situation - she felt she'd made it happen by inviting him over.

I think women need to voice it out loud to men, if they don't want to have sex. Men are not mind-readers.

The trouble with that horrible sentence, is that it conjures up the idea that women may be happy to have sex at the time, but then later reflect and wish they hadn't done it. This is actually quite common. However, it's verging on ridiculous to suggest that she will then decide to call it rape - unless, she has a vendetter against him or is mentally unsound.

Another scenario is that a woman has sex with someone, even though she doesn't really want to, and doesn't enjoy it, or hates it, but says nothing to the man about it. I can then maybe understand that a young woman may be influenced by friends into thinking that it was rape.
But lets be honest here - if you were not under the influence of drink or drugs at the time, then even if you didn't want to do it, you should KNOW whether you TOLD the man that you didn't want sex or wanted him to stop. If you didn't tell him, it's not rape.

I'd also include obvious signs that she didn't want to have sex in that.
However, is it likely that a woman gives obvious signs she doesn't want sex without ever saying 'no'? Would she be struggling to get away from him, crying, pushing him away, etc, and not saying 'no'? Isn't it a natural reaction to couple those signs with the word 'no'?

WittyCakeMeister - you are talking about hypothetical scenarios you've created and used them to blame women for not voicing something...in a scenario which never happened. It also shows a shocking lack of understanding of how a woman/girl can feel in the company of a man/boy, stronger, pushy, maybe even intimidating. How can you say we can always make it totally clear? We could be silent, reticent, maybe afraid to say no or push him off, frozen, boys and men should be able to READ THE SIGNS and understand what consent is.

FFS rape isn't only when a woman says no or pushes the man away or cries.

If you didn't tell him, it's not rape.

What a load of nonsense.

So if someone gets their drink spiked/is passed out due to drink/drugs/is asleep/gagged. Then it's not rape because they didn't say no? Fuck right off with that shit.

Men may not be mind readers but they are also not complete idiots either.

Witty, I'm hoping your remarks are borne of simply never having been in that situation/talked to a friend who has been in that situation. If you look at the testimony of rape victims (and this is well explained in the psychological literature) it's a gross over-simplification to talk about the "fight or flight" reflex: it is better described as "flight, fight or freeze". It is incredibly common for rape victims simply to freeze and lie there completely inert.

Also, if you read through the #whyIdidn'treport thread (and please, please do not post your ideas about women just needing to say "no" more clearly because men aren't mind readers) you will see that a recurring theme is saying no, or saying "I'm okay with X but not Y" and having that ignored.

There's a very good chapter in Deborah Cameron's book "The Myth of Mars and Venus" on the whole idea that "men are just rubbish communicators" which debunks that idea. Both sexes are able to read subtle signs and body language - rapists choose to pretend that they can't.

Also, you might find the work of American criminal psychologist David Lisak interesting. When he carries out surveys of randomly selected college students and asks them about behaviour patterns without mentioning the word rape, behaviours like "have you ever had sex with a woman when you knew she didn't want it, by using your body weight to restrain her?", 6% of men admit to behaviours which meet the legal definition of rape. When he repeats those questionnaires explicitly asking "have you ever raped a woman?" the percentage drops to 5%.

This strongly suggests that most rapists know exactly what they are doing. They don't care. They know that if they already know the woman, or have been seen drinking with her in a bar, or she's drunk, the chances of them being convicted are next to zero.

That is why we don't need advice like "make sure he understands 'no'". Chances are he understands damn fine. It's not rocket science. What we need is a sea change in public attitude, and a change in the way rape is prosecuted. So that it become routine for prosecution lawyers to ask "What exactly made you think this woman wanted sex at this particular time in these particular circumstances?" And where when it's her word ("I lay there motionless and crying") against his ("She loved it") juries are more prepared to believe the woman's testimony.

I think women need to voice it out loud to men, if they don't want to have sex. Men are not mind-readers.

I think men who are not mind readers shouod stop trying to read consent in women's minds.

If they need explicit signs, then they should look for positive expressions of consent.

The idea that you need to read someone's mind or you will just have to presume they want you to stick your cock inside them is really quite strange.

Can we apply this to murder victims too?

"How can have he be expected to know she didn't want to be shot in the head?"

But that is presuming that all rapists are horrible men who set out to rape.
Accusations of rape can happen to men who don't want to rape. They are not all evil. I still think there is a grey area. What if she freezes and there are no signs, and she doesn't say no? How do you expect a man, who may not have had many sexual partners and not be that experienced, to pick up the signs she didn't want it? Not all men are sex mad, sexually experienced people.

Shouldn't this also be about educating women too? We should be telling girls from a young age to show these signs and be vocal. If they don't, then unfortunately it's going to be very hard to prove it was rape.

Towards the end of the film 'The Wolf of Wallstreet' there is a scene where Leo dicaprio's character is trying to get his wife to have sex with him and she is saying no and pushing him off and he is all like 'come on baby'. It then cuts to him pumping away while she just lies there and says 'i fucking hate you Jordan' or similar. She then pretends that she is really loving it then when he has finished tells him that was the last time and she is divorcing her. He flies off the handle and then punches her in the stomach before trying to steal their kids. What a guy eh?

Anyway, it has always struck me as odd that that scene is not thought of particularly as a rape scene I don't think. And its because eventually she 'lets him' have sex with her. But it's rape isnt it?

Doinitfine - So is there never a situation where a woman doesn't want sex but just goes along with it and just seems willing, even though inside she doesn't want to?
Of course there is. I've been there.
I think too many people here are seeing things too black and white. There is a big difference between the pushy rapist who knows he's raping and the boyfriend who genuinely thinks his girlfriend wanted to have sex. We've got to see it from both sides.

Yes, it is rape.

What if she freezes and there are no signs, and she doesn't say no?

Then he's raping her.

Either he cares enough to make sure that never happens.

Or he's an evil bastard.

Isitadouble - Yes it's rape. She says no and she pushes him away.

You mean like the way we need to see murder from the murderer's side?

OH MY GOD IF SHE FREEZES THAT IS A SIGN SHE IS NOT COMFORTABLE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

This is horrendous, this is exactly why I would never report it if I was raped.

What does it say about a man, that he'll pump away into a woman who is lying motionless and inert? At the very least it's obvious that he does not care at all about her enjoyment.

And you might like to note that the law is on our side (even if it's more honoured in the breach than the observance). There is no such thing as "presumed consent" in English law. Consent is not the absence of no. It is saying yes or indicating by your actions that sex is welcome.

A man who pumps away at an inert woman is a rapist, not just morally, but legally too. It's just that it's nigh-on impossible to prosecute the bastard for it.

The idea that you need to read someone's mind or you will just have to presume they want you to stick your cock inside them is really quite strange.

Yes, surely if you are not sure if someone wants you inside them, the put thing to do is not do that? If in doubt, don't? It's not that hard (pardon the pun) is it?

Blokes who are like 'oh i will need to get written consent before sex, how ridiculous it's all becoming' are the kind of blokes that I would steer clear of, because they obviously are not sure what 'consent' looks like. It's pure entitlement.

"How do you expect a man, who may not have had many sexual partners and not be that experienced, to pick up the signs she didn't want it? Not all men are sex mad, sexually experienced people."

That suggests it is the man that needs educating, not the woman.

That's the excuse my rapist was using, "I couldn't tell that you didn't want me too", despite the fact that he said during sex "it's not very nice if you are not moving", despite the fact I was frozen and had tears in my eyes, despite the fact I had my legs clamped together and he had to force them apart to be able to have sex with me. He was a 40-something father of 3, not an inexperienced teen. Introducing more "grey areas" is the last thing we need in rape.

"Shouldn't this also be about educating women too? We should be telling girls from a young age to show these signs and be vocal."

All we do is tell girls don't do this, don't do that, don't walk there, don't go here, don't drink there, don't wear that. It's bloody enraging. How on EARTH can we always be vocal, it's easy to say, not so easy to do if you're with a boy/man, bigger, stronger, pushy, you're intimidated. How about we teach boys how to read the signs and only proceed with clear, enthusiastic consent?

Oh my god. Stop making excuses for rapist behaviour. It is black and white, consent is not difficult to understand.

If a man isn't sure that a woman is consenting, then maybe he should ask. Or maybe he should stop trying to initiate sex.

It doesn't matter if the women says no or stop, it often goes ignored anyway. Not saying no does also not mean the woman didn't do enough to not get raped, which is what you are implying.

Please go and read the #whyididntreport thread. It might open your eyes to the realities of rape because you are clearly very ignorant.

I don't think it's 'always trotted out' at all.

Sometimes it's said, and it's mostly wrong.

Occasionally it's said and it's true. There have been documented cases where the woman has admitted she lied because she ended up pregnant/was scared of her parents finding out she wasn't a virgin/scared of partner finding out she'd cheated.

So you're BU if you're saying it never happens. Why you would lie, I have no idea though.

But that is presuming that all rapists are horrible men who set out to rape. I cannot express how many things are wrong with this sentence.

Why the hell are we talking about what women need to do or not do? It actually isn't a tragedy if a shy or reticent women doesn't get to have sex ever. If she can't express enthusiastic consent, then don't have sex with her. It's not up to women to not drink or be more clear. It's up to men not to stick their penises where they aren't very obviously welcome.

If I knock on someone's door, I sodding well ask to be let in. I don't barge past, shouting, "you've had a drink and you didn't tell me not to come in". FFS.