AIBU to think that if you commit an adult crime you shouldn't receive anonymity

[Ohbehave1]

After hearing that both of the children involved in the murder of a mother and daughter have been found guilty I think that they if they were adult enough murder someone, and then go and watch films and have sex after that they should be old enough to be named after.

Their crimes were particularly nasty, and as such they should live with the consequences for the rest of their lives. They certainly shouldn't be able to do a few years and then get out with anonymity and start their lives as if nothing ever happened.

The problem is that nobody mentions Stephen Lawrence, they're either too embarrassed (rightly so) or just don't care. I completely understand the reasons for joint enterprise and wholeheartedly agree with them.

Gosh after reading the Guardian article, I too am beginning to feel sorry for the girl involved.

The fact she tried to commit sister just before the murders and her Drs said she needed help, how can anyone say she didn't have a mental illness?

The prosecution psychiatrist painted a very particular picture of her to the jury, it might seem.

The majority of the comments on this thread I find disturbing. However, I understand it to be a knee jerk reaction to the crime, coupled with a lack of understanding.

My 'area' IRL as it were, is in a specialised capacity. Other than that, I won't elaborate. I will say, there will be a multitude of professionals, from various disciplines who will be instrumental in what will hopefully be the rehabilitation of the offenders.

Speculation as to the 'Why' these crimes were committed, will be down to ongoing, continuous assessment. There is no 'Straight Forward' answer to give the public.

Crimes perpetrated by children usually bring a 'shock' factor. There are MANY cases of children committing such crimes. As many people have mentioned the Bulger case. I will say I studied that case for academic reasons. If memory serves, there were 38 adults, who could have intervened and prevented his death. We refer to this as the 'Bystander Effect'. I am sure, with regard to this case, the warning signs were there also, the majority of adults do not pick up on notable changes in behaviour.

The children will need anonymity. If the judge decides against that, then no lessons have been learnt from previous cases and the outcome will be extremely detrimental.

I do think the more people knew about the background to the case while initially they may be more shocked then they may also have more sympathy for the girl.

I wonder if she will appeal.

Whatever happens I hope she gets the help she obviously needs.

So tragic.

liney yes, but clearly any evidence she presented for diminished responsibility was not accepted.

how can anyone say she didn't have a mental illness?

I've not heard anyone say that.

Both of the killers were clearly extremely messed up. But to prove diminished responsibility you have to show more than just mental illness.

A lot of murders have personality disorders, particularly psychopathic personality disorder but I think you have to be an adult with a formed personality to have that diagnosed. Their lack of remorse or empathy makes them sound psychopathic though.
With most mental illnesses and personality disorders you are still in control of your actions and know what you are doing though. It's just if at the time you think the person you are killing is satan who is controlling you through the radio and stuff like that where you are completely divorced from reality that you can definitely get a murder charge reduced due to mental illness.
Impulsive things are easier to get diminished responsibility for as well where as this was planned and rehearsed.
Being screwed up isn't a licence to kill.

One expert did doubt that she was ill. But she also said that she even if she had the illness it wouldn't have meant that she didn't know right from wrong or was in control of her actions.

So if someone committed murder with florid psychosis believing the victim was a murderous demon they would clearly be innocent. But personality disorders are more of a grey area, because although people are functioning differently they are normally making conscious choices to do so even though they know it's wrong. Nearly all serial killers and a lot of murderers will have some degree of personality disorder, but it doesn't make them innocent of what they've done because they've still chosen to do it.

But there's so much in this case that's hard to talk about, because the disorder the girl is supposed to have is one where other people very much hold a great responsibility for it's development in the first place.

I think the debate over naming them is a bit of a moot point anyway, as I suspect there will almost certainly be an appeal and there will be no names named until after that anyway.

Possibly naming though would be in the girl's interests anyway. Because reporting is very much skewed at the moment.

It's too easy to find their names online, which is sad. Although once you know, the whole thing makes a little more sense

The defense lawyers were bound to find an expert to plead that she had diminished responsibility - that's their job. I think (from published media reports) she is guilty of murder - helped plan it etc. Lots of teenagers have disordered thinking, although most would not go on to commit murder. Sadly self harm is very common these days amongst teenagers. It's a tough time developmentally but most know true right from wrong

I think they should have ideally remained anonymous; with psychological help and time they may come to realise they behaved wrongly and regret their actions. They might turn out to be well balanced adults. Many of us find our teenage views are not the same 5 or 10 years down the line, they can change with age and maturity. Mine certainly did. They still need to pay the price for murder though, whatever their perceived reasons for killing might have been, it is not acceptable

I think this whole thread needs to go. I know (knew) nothing about this case bar the bare headlines and news reports, but all the careful non-naming of causes and relationships makes it very obvious.

And what would be the point of that Lancelottie?

Lancelottie - MN have deleted where people may have posted identifying info. If you don't want to read a thread on a topic don't click - same for all threads on MN.

all the careful non-naming of causes and relationships makes it very obvious.

It's not just this thread though, that makes it obvious. It was obvious from reading the newspapers. There is no way to report on this case, and preserve anonymity, without leaving 'holes' that allow some people to infer the truth. I suppose that's still more anonymity than just announcing who they are, but it's always going to be flawed.

Im not sure I agree that naming them would make people view them more favourably.

I really think that in cases like this where the severity of the crime is so shocking, the public deserves to understand what's going on. The limited information that the newspapers provide is very unsettling because without the motive it doesn't make sense and it's terrifying - it appears that something like this can happen to anybody, anywhere, something that we cannot learn from, in order to make things better in the future for other families like this one. More information doesn't make it any better, but it does help to understand why this happened in the first place.

The fact that people like this can be potentially 'rehabilitated' scares me. I think it's too late for that

There's a lot more in the way of powerful hints in this thread than in the newspaper reports.

True, I can avoid clicking threads where it is obvious that there might be identifying info - but not sure how anyone would know before reading the posts that they would make it obvious.

How would removing the thread help? It would help by reducing the spread of the (implied) information.

Lancelottie - I worked it out for myself weeks ago, right at the start of the trial. I still haven't googled for confirmation. I'm sure I can't be the only one and so, once again, I question the value or effectiveness of the ban on naming the murderers.

But I think the thread has drawn to a natural close now anyway. There's not much more to be said at the moment, it will be interesting to see what happens after sentencing.

Fair enough.

AyeOK

This goes back a couple of pages & is off topic, but having read this thread if it wasn't already obvious who the perpetrators were based on what's been reported in the press I likely would Google to find out. It's not getting off on it or entertment or anything similar. It's more I need to understand. The same reason I read true crime religiously from age ten, sat in on forensic lectures instead or going to my own classes, feel calm watching special victims unit or horror films or anyything even vaguely related- it's what is normal to me. I was abused repeatedly by multiple perpetrators from a very young age, with my mother's knowledge & consent, made to believe i would be killed when i was no longer of use to them. I know it sounds strange but this was what was normal to me and I still feel somewhat more comfortable in this world than the normal one. I worked with victims and child perpetrators for along time too. Generally I avoid too much new exposure to these type of news articles because it just kicks off old patterns of behaviour where I need to know why but if I did read this & didn't find it glaringly obvious I probably would search. I have been there and done that with trauma therapy & perfectly stable but it doesn't leave who I am at my core. I just wanted to explain this so you can know that people goigling arn't allways sicko's or whatever else, it's a pretty human impulse to want to understand why even without my 'need' to know because of what I suffered.

Sorry for what happened to your friend.

I find it strange that so many people say that it's obvious who the perpetrators were from comments made - either in the press or on here.

Either these were 2 very famous teenagers, everybody on Mumsnet knows the entire population of Spalding, or everyone on mumsnet are from Spalding.

If I bothered to google it I guess I would find out their names but that would still mean nothing to me as I do not know anyone there.

Or none of those ohbehave.