AIBU to think that if you commit an adult crime you shouldn't receive anonymity

[Ohbehave1]

After hearing that both of the children involved in the murder of a mother and daughter have been found guilty I think that they if they were adult enough murder someone, and then go and watch films and have sex after that they should be old enough to be named after.

Their crimes were particularly nasty, and as such they should live with the consequences for the rest of their lives. They certainly shouldn't be able to do a few years and then get out with anonymity and start their lives as if nothing ever happened.

In this case I think it's fair to say that one was a sadistic psychopath.... and so was the other.

Well I'm glad that most people and the criminal justice system disagree with you.

elendon I'm really struggling to follow your point. Tbh It is coming across like you are struggling to follow it yourself. You are jumping from one point to the next. You are spitting angry, that much is clear. But it's not clear what exactly you are saying. Everyone agrees what he did was horrendous. No-one said it wasn't. Did they?

I'm leaving this thread now, but before I go Elendon it appears to be you who doesn't understand. Both are culpable, both made the offence happen, both planned it and both were there when it happened. Both could have stopped it at any point by calling the police or telling the other it wasn't going to happen. Neither did, so they are both equally culpable in the eyes of the law.

What aye said

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-37105035

The Sadie Hartley murder is a case in point.

Katrina Williams stabbed her victim 41 times, that takes a lot of force. Why she should have the same sentence as Katrina Walsh is beyond me. The two crimes were not the same. Katrina Walsh was culpable, but she did not murder. Although why Katrina Williams was described as a 'she devil' is beyond me (and I would be personally insulted by this if the victim were my relative).

I believe this teenage girl is guilty of manslaughter, not murder though.

The difference between manslaughter and murder is intent.

I.e. voluntary manslaughter - for example you come across an intruder in your house and shove them away from you, but the fall kills them. Or involuntary manslaughter - for example backing your car it your garage without looking and running someone down. In each case someone has died, as a result of the actions of the accused, but it wasn't their intention to have them killed.

All evidence points to the girl intending the victims to die - she unequivocally stated she wanted it to happen, she planned it with the boy, she let the boy in, encouraged him when he expressed doubt, checked he was ok during it, etc. It was premeditated murder.

Her defense was that she wasn't responsible for her actions due to her mental state, the medical expert for the defense agreed with this, the medical expert for the prosecution disagreed, as did the jury.

What's your reason for thinking that this is manslaughter?

Sarah Williams, not Katrina Williams.

The criminal justice system is not happy with the joint enterprise scheme regarding murders. It's a system that is deeply flawed.

And it's a system that discriminates more against young male teenagers and men than it does young female teenagers and women. There are hundreds of young men in the prison system who are there as murders simply by dent of being in a group at the time of the killing.

You forgot manslaughter by diminished responsibility.

I cannot say. As this would breach anonymity. Not on the girl, but on the boy.

You forgot manslaughter by diminished responsibility.

I didn't forget it, I mentioned that the defense tried to claim diminished responsibility based on her mental state. At least one medical professional who assessed her did not believe this was the case, and neither did the jury.

In any case, if you believe she wasn't responsible due to her mental state, why not just say so, rather than insisting that it was anything to do with who held the knife?

Katrina Walsh (as you bought that case up) helped plan the murder, bought the equipment (including the murder weapon - and rather infamously got the club card points for it), helped to stake out the victim, (including doing a 'dry run' of the attack) and helped clean up and tried to pin the murder on others. Why on earth shouldn't she gave been put away for murder?

You seem to think that 'not holding the knife' = not being a murderer. If I hired a hitman to kill someone I wouldn't have held the weapon, but I would be responsible for murder.

Elendon what is your agenda here?

What is yours Blanche?

Perhaps I have a biased opinion here of her because I do actually have an idea in the motive.

Which is why I am saying she is just a responsible

Elendon it sounds like you are getting off on gratuitous details of this case as you keep parroting "plunged knife into voice box". Two people were murdered using a knife the exact methods are irrelevant.

Elendon your posts are increasingly disjointed, they don't all correspond to making the same point and are frankly becoming more goady by the minute. You're contradicting your own points and seem to be unhealthily obsessed with posting the most graphic details of this awful crime.

"When the names come out, and I hope they do, then this case will be clearer."

That it most definitely will.

But whether it would lead to more people agreeing with your version of events in which the girl was an inopportune bystander with lesser culpability for the killings remains a matter to be seen.

Presuming, Elendon, that you've researched who they are and their relationship to the victims; as well as their motive - why do you think that becoming public would help your case?

I think, if anything, it'll have more people disagreeing with you.

I just saw in the Guardian that a Serious Case Review will take place. The summaries of these are public, I believe?

Aye I'm so sorry about what happened to your friend, and the grief and trauma that her family - and you - have subsequently had to live with. I hope you have people in RL to talk to, when you need.

Err elendon! massively identifying info in that descriptive post! Please stop.

I'm not on here to make people agree or disagree with me. This is a complicated case. There are no sides to this.

However, I do put forward that there is a case against joint enterprise. It's a disgusting way to bring about 'justice'.

In what way Jen?

Eloden, you have effectively identified one of the perps in your post.

elendon - I have reported your post - it is illegal to post identifying information.