Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to feel cross and frustrated with mum? Money, mortgage, inheritance

322 replies

minifingerz · 17/10/2016 19:51

I've posted about this on mumsnet before, but the situation has changed a bit in the past year.

The back story: dad did equity release on parental home a few years before he died. My mum never fully understood what she was signing her name to - she didn't understand the concept of compound interest, still doesn't.

Five years on from dad's death and mum now (now 81) lives in the family home with my older sister, who raised a 150K interest only mortgage on her salary to pay off the equity release, and is servicing this fairly large mortgage while she lives at home with my mum. If she hadn't done that it is likely the bulk of the value of the house would have been consumed in a fairly short period of time, leaving my mum stuck in a detached house with a massive garden, which she would struggle to maintain on her own, but unable to leave as she wouldn't have enough money available after paying the equity release off to buy another cheaper property in the very expensive area where she is determined to see her days out.

Now here's the problem: dsis has psoriasis which has become very very bad recently, to the point that her hands and feet are almost completely raw, and she is struggling to get through every day in her very strenuous and responsible (and physically active) job. She has to sleep with plastic bags on her hands and feet, comes home every with blood leaking out of the dressings, and has to spend half an hour after work every day debriding and soaking her hands and feet before wrapping them in clingfilm. Sad This results in her barely managing to keep on top of her work and suffering from quite intense anxiety about it as a knock on. I can't see how she can continue in her job and neither can she, but if she leaves how will she service the mortgage? She is 53 and would struggle to get a job that in any other sector which would be feasible for her with her health problems. She has had this problem for years and has tried many different treatments which until recently kept it under control enough to allow her to function. In the last year however it's got really out of control.

Anyway, a family friend died earlier this year and left my mum 120K and my sister 30K, enough money to pay off the mortgage. As soon as my mum phoned me and told me about the inheritance I said 'brilliant, now you can pay the mortgage off and you can both stop worrying about your future in the house' (ie, can you afford to stay or will you have to sell and downsize if you can't pay the mortgage). DB said exactly the same, and so did my mum's best friend.

All fine. Except not, as mum has decided that she wants to use her part of the inheritance to get the (perfectly decent and functional) kitchen remodelled, go on cruises, and generally live it up, while my sister carries on servicing the mortgage.

My brother put it to my mum that my sister is really struggling with work, to which my mum's response was 'she's lucky to live here in such a lovely house, she's made her choices, now she has to deal with the consequences'.

I feel gutted and angry with my mum. My sister has grafted all her life and never complained. She has never had anyone who's 'got her back'. Her ex partner of 19 years was profoundly selfish and insisted on separate homes/finances until she left him. Then her next partner offered her the security of a home together, but turned out to be a violent abuser. He was a gambler and an alcoholic who ran through all the equity my sister had when she sold her flat to move in with him, and she ended up back in a rented property at 43 with nothing in the bank. She has never asked my parents for anything and is the most honest, sincere, principled person I know. I feel distressed that my mum can't take her needs into account, given that my sister is struggling so badly with her psoriasis. My mum's quality of life is so good for someone of her age. She has a very comfortable income, is active, is still driving, has enough of an income to eat out several times a week, go on holiday with her friends, employ a cleaner and a part-time gardener, and put money in the bank every week. She has a better social life than me and she hasn't worked full time since she was in her 20's. I could understand her wanting to live it up on her inheritance if she didn't already have a really good quality of life, hadn't already travelled the world several times over, been on a cruise, lived in beautiful homes etc. She's said that she wants to give some of the money to my db and me, but we've said firmly that we don't want it, that we want her to pay off the mortgage with it so that this stops being a worry for her and my sister.

It's like she can't compute that not paying off the mortgage means that my sister is trapped on a treadmill of full-time work which she is becoming too ill to cope with. If I try to get this point across to her she gets angry with me and closes down. Tells me to stop upsetting her, that she's old and can't deal with people upsetting her.

I feel oddly distressed about how hard-faced my mum is being. She's a loving person, but she's not behaving like a loving mother to my sister in relation to this issue. I can't see how it's going to pan out right now, and I'm worried about it causing a serious rift between us.

OP posts:
minifingerz · 18/10/2016 10:06

"She was ok with equity release"

She was not ok with the equity release. It was my dad's choice and once my mum got her head around how it worked she was very unhappy about it.

OP posts:
LillianGish · 18/10/2016 10:18

The mum clearly has no interest in leaving an inheritance for her kids - it's not on her radar, and that's her choice. I don't see why people don't get this. She doesn't care. I think if you accept this OP it will help you get her. She wants to stay in her house and carry on visiting orphanages and playing mahjong (unusual choice of game for a woman of your mum's background). I also think there is more background here - why was you sister tipped out of boarding school at 17 and into a flea-infested bedsit?

minifingerz · 18/10/2016 10:27

"why was you sister tipped out of boarding school at 17 and into a flea-infested bedsit?"

She didn't want to continue in boarding school. She wanted to do her A levels at a local FE college, and my parents were living abroad. None of us three siblings thrived in boarding school.

OP posts:
shovetheholly · 18/10/2016 10:30

I am so, so sorry for your sister. Just reading this in absolute horror, on the verge of tears. She sounds like a total saint and your mother is behaving with awful selfishness.

I think, as always in these cases, there are two issues: the practical situation and the emotional fallout. They are not the same!

Emotionally, it sounds as though your sister is overburdened, deeply stressed and trapped in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) around a parent whose behaviour is narcissistic. I think she probably needs some further emotional support, some shoring up to make it clear that this is not solely her fight and there are other ways of dealing with it. Can counselling be considered?

Practically, I would seek urgent advice from the CAB about your sister's situation, and about what can be done to help her. She should not be shouldering this all alone. Is there a way, for example, of selling the house and downsizing to reduce the size of the mortgage?

It worries me that your DM is talking about "inheritance" to you and your DB - it's almost like she's trying to force a split between you both and your sister. I think you are both doing exactly the right thing in opposing her, and in forcing her to confront the consequences of her decisions for your sister. I don't think you should hold back on calling her behaviour as selfish if need be.

minifingerz · 18/10/2016 10:30

"That's the real crime here, that the siblings aren't helping the sister financially."

How? We have our own big mortgages and lots of kids and actually bugger all disposable income.

OP posts:
LillianGish · 18/10/2016 10:39

SIngapore? Is that where she learned to play Mahjong?

minifingerz · 18/10/2016 10:42

saintagur is so far off the mark it's not true.

We adore our mum and dance attendance on her.

Nobody has told her she should leave her home or her village.

Nobody has told her she should sell her house.

We have suggested this: that she uses the 120K she has just inherited from a family friend to pay the mortgage off (the mortgage that was needed to pay off the equity release my dad single handedly decided on before he died) so she DOESN'T have to sell the house at the end of the mortgage term (because it's an interest only mortgage).

Yes of course she could have carried on with the equity release, but that would have closed off all other options for downsizing or paying for care later on when she may struggle to manage living in a house that needs so much input.

As for 'working hard' - it's funny that when money has been accrued there is always an assumption that someone has worked incredibly hard to make this happen. Actually my dad was a senior civil servant (foreign office) at a time when jobs like this came with a 40 hour working week, free private education for your children, generous personal allowances, and a stonkingly good pension. My mum can't understand the way we work now. She actually gets quite pissed off with my sister for working a 60 hour week.

OP posts:
walkerandtexasranger · 18/10/2016 10:53

Sorry for misunderstanding Mini.

Over 600 pounds means she is paying over 5% interest which is a lot in the current market particularly when there is so much equity in the property.

As a short term solution I would suggest you speak to your dsis and explain you want to help. If she is open to it, find our when her mortgage deal is due to end and get a good mortgage broker on the case. Remortgaging to a rate of 3% should bring it down to nearer 300 per month although she should be able to get even less than that.

I appreciate it doesn't solve the much broader problem but tbh it seems as though everyone is at an impasse. Your DM refuses to admit the strain your dsis is under or cage her way of life to help her and your dsis refuses to apply pressure or give her deadlines for action. I am afraid without either one backing down your hands are tied.

walkerandtexasranger · 18/10/2016 10:54

Gah *change not cage!

shovetheholly · 18/10/2016 10:58

mini - maybe that is the problem - that you're protecting her from the consequences of her decisions, and the burden is falling on your sister? Another approach might be to present it is as a choice:

Either she uses the £120k to pay off the mortgage OR she downsizes now. Either way, your sister needs to be released from the burden of having to slave away for someone who actually is choosing to go on cruises rather than secure her own future wellbeing.

Sometimes, sad to say, if you remove all responsibility from someone for their problems, you just create more problems. People need to learn to be resilient in their own circumstances, not to be protected from the consequences of all of their actions.

Haribogirl · 18/10/2016 11:00

Very selfish off your mum

tell your mum, without sister coming to the aid, she would off lost her precious home.

If your sister owns percentage, why don't get mum to buy her share back off sister from the 120k she's inherited
Sister then can use this to put with her 30k to buy something on her own

Mum then owns all the house, and if it get reprocessed etc so be it!
Mum can pay the interest only mortgage (is this in your sisters name only?)
Herself out of her comfortable income

HyacinthFuckit · 18/10/2016 11:07

Wouldn't say dsis is playing you, but I agree with a pp there seems to be more than one person irrationally attached to the house here. There's a lot of kicking the can down the road going on. I wouldn't bet anything worth having on someone who is already debilitatingly ill in their early 50s being able to continue at the level of care and house upkeep being provided for another 10-20 years, even leaving the finances out of it. Dsis is not a spring chicken. Being a carer can destroy the health of people younger and healthier than her, who've had easier lives. Nothing you've posted suggests dsis fully comprehends this, tbh.

Backt0Black · 18/10/2016 11:11

Like everyone else I think you need to have a stern and serious talk with your mother. And - I'm sorry but Your posts give slightly mixed messages, you seem condemning of her utterly selfish and blinkered behaviour in one moment, but are very quick to defend her through processes the next (though I appreciate it is hard not to be defensive when people are calling it how it is)

I think telling your sister to not pay the mortgage is awful advice. This will seriously bugger up her credit rating for a couple of years, leaving it very difficult to secure a mortgage in the future and - if she does it will very be at a crippling rate.

I would say to your mother that

1 - the situation for your sister has become unmanageable and this is VISIBLE in the huge flareup in her health issues.

2 - she should restrospectively offer half of all the payments your sister has perviously made and set up a recurring banks transfer for half the mortgage and household bills - to pay into your sisters account monthly.

Under the above model she should still have money to indulge herself - but I do agree it would be RIGHT for her to settle the mortgage out right
.
3 - If she will not do the above, she should be told she cannot force your sister to carry on funding HER very specific life choices / demands ('her village 'her house') and that the house is going on the market.

4 - From there she needs to understand that she will NEED to look at affordable accommodation options for herself.

This will leave your sister free to live her own life and not carry on sprinting on the hamster wheel to fund the partygirl life your mother has in mind for herself.

Backt0Black · 18/10/2016 11:15

I should add ..... I would be totally unreceptive to any guilt trips and wails of 'abandonment' and being 'thrown out of own home' from ANYONE with £120k in their back pocket.

I would however be very sympathetic to someone who is working 60 hours a week, clearly unwell and getting sod all help from the very woman shes doing it all for.

'A good deed never goes unpunished'............

Didiusfalco · 18/10/2016 11:17

Mini youve said a couple of times that you dance attendance on her and adore her. Its not really clear why? - sounds like she avoided all the tougher parts of parenting and could have helped with uni fees/deposits/weddings but chose not to. (yes, i know she didnt have to - it just seems alien to me that she wouldn't want to). She is of sound mind, you need to have the difficult conversations, upset her if need be, deal with the fall out. All this dancing around her is getting you no-where.

Shiningexample · 18/10/2016 11:25

Is the sister getting some kind of gratification from taking on the role of martyr in this situation?

Ciutadella · 18/10/2016 11:26

I think I am going to go against the grain of the thread here and say if this were me (as op!) I would not have a talk with dm.

Yes it is tempting to try to 'sort it out' but ultimately this is a financial deal between two adults, and I would take the view (after much agonising!) that they need to sort it out themselves. I know the outcome may not be good, but it has to be their outcome - not one urged on them by other members of the family. The key is for each of them to get separate, good, independent financial advice about the best option for her, and then make a decision. Maybe one or both will decide to act against their own financial interests, or be unreasonable, foolhardy etc - but that has to be a decision for them.

Shiningexample · 18/10/2016 11:29

All the bleeding described in the op makes me think of stigmata
There's a the theme here to do with the glorification of suffering imo

BarbarianMum · 18/10/2016 11:31

Paying £400 a month to live in a nice house with a nice garden in a village the SE doesn't sound like abuse tbh. Or have I misunderstood the figures?

dowhatnow · 18/10/2016 11:33

If she's paying approx £400 per month to service the interest free loan, that is much cheaper than she would have to pay to rent somewhere.

Your DM could have lived out the rest of her years in that house - there wouldn't have been any equity in it to leave in her will but your DM would have been alright and her recent inheritance would be hers to play with.

Tbh I can't see that the current situation is unfair. I can see why you are hurt that DM hasn't chosen to help alleviate dsis pressures now, when she has the means to, but she isn't obliged to.

The whole mortgage thing has protected the inheritance for all you children but it hasn't really changed dms actual current position.

EleanorRigby123 · 18/10/2016 11:36

I actually think YABU.

As I understand them, equity release schemes allow someone to remain in the family home until they die. If the individual dies soon after the contract is signed the equity release scheme has earned a high level of interest on the debt and they win. If however the individual lives to be 100, the amount released can be greater than the value of the home so the equity release company loses. There is never any threat that the home owner can be evicted if the debt outweighs the value of the home. This is the deal your DF entered into. Your DM was entirely safe in her own home.

What was, and is, at stake is your and your siblings potential inheritance from your parents. In order to safeguard this, you and your siblings took out a loan which your sister is now finding difficult to service. In doing so you endangered your DM's security for your own financial gain. Did your DM actually understand this? It seems to me that as you are responsible for creating this situation, and since you are the ones who stand to benefit from it, it is you and your siblings who should be helping to service the debt. Not your DM.

MimiLeBonk · 18/10/2016 11:44

If your DM is of that generation I'd be looking around for an older professional gentleman to sternly tell her about it and that she will lose her home as your sister will not be able to work. Sadly because of your father she may be conditioned to respond only to an elder male.

If she doesn't respond to this or is blasé I'd be questioning her mental health and capability as that would not be a normal response in someone who claims to not want to leave their home.

IamSwitzerland · 18/10/2016 11:46

I agree that an older IFA or solicitor should be drafted in here, and quickly. Someone not related with the clout to be respected by your DM. If your DM and DS want to continue as they are once they have all of the facts that is their lookout, for now it sounds like there is ignorance of the cold hard facts which needs addressed or you will be left to clean up the expensive mess.

£120k really is not a lot of cash and is not going to last long or go far, for all you know it may be trickling through her fingers right now. It is not a lot of money and actually the amounts are irrelevant - it is not enough money to pay debt and go spending.

The very firm point that needs made is this; there is a debt - it needs paid and costs more every day it is not paid (even against early repayment charges etc).

Any incoming money must be balanced against the debt, if the debt is £150k then there is no spending money for anyone until £150kplus comes in and the account shows black. The inheritance is a means of paying off a debt, spending money when you are in the red is increasing debt and debt is a service you pay for - debt costs money.

Your DM is viewing that money as a black number in her account, make her see in no uncertain terms that her account is £150k in the red and needs brought back into black before anyone gets treats. She does not have £120k in the bank, she had -£150k and so now has -£30k which is an outstanding amount owed to your sister.

If you can make that premise clear then you can go on to look at ways of giving spending cash if that is still the aim - obviously the only way would be downsizing, changing way of life, taking in lodgers etc.

Whilst you are sorting out this mess be sure that POA and wills etc are up to date.

If nothing else can be done with regard to your DM then at the very least take your DS to an IFA (and possibly a good therapist or counsellor) and be there for her whilst she removes the blinkers and begins to extricate herself.

If neither of them will progress then know that you did your best and quietly start your own plan b for when one of them needs more help and there is no money left. I really sympathise, what a stupid situation.

howabout · 18/10/2016 12:04

My sympathies on a very difficult situation.

I just wanted to say that your DM reclaiming 100% ownership of the house by paying off the £150k mortgage may in fact disadvantage your DSis.

House prices in the SE have increased by at least 30% over the last 5 years. This ought to mean that the £800k house was only worth £600k when the mortgage was taken out and so your DSis bought a 25% stake in the property which would now be worth £200k gross of the mortgage.

They would need the advice of a solicitor to sort this out equitably.

MrsLupo · 18/10/2016 12:07

I think that is possibly why they clung so unwisely to the family home

I think this is very common, tbh. As people get older, many of them seem to become fixated with staying in their familiar environment, and the older they get, the less it represents a good decision imo. I'm not sure if it's to do with familiarity, being settled, stuck in ways, etc (I relate to this - even in my 40s, the thought of ever moving house again makes me shudder, though undoubtedly I will at some point) or whether it's to do with being in denial about ageing and having to face up to pragmatic decisions. Maybe it's also to do with attitudes, among that generation at least, about home ownership and the imperative always to expand rather than downsize. Whatever the reasons, I've seen it time and again.

My PILs considered an equity release scheme, and in the end entered into some complicated, probably exploitative, arrangement with one of their DCs (not my DP!), who is seriously loaded and not very solid in the moral compass department. Leaving aside my reservations about the equitability of the arrangement, I really question its prudence. Because DP's sibling was in a position to intervene, the PILs were able to avoid having difficult deliberations about mobility, building upkeep, etc. It was all about emotions, "we've lived here 40 years and everybody knows us", etc. Now, a decade or so down the line, FIL is seriously mobility-impaired and MIL is losing her eyesight. If they live long enough, and I'm as sure as I can be that one or both of them will, the move they desperately tried to avoid will inevitably have to happen, and will be much more traumatic and fraught with difficulty now they're frailer, still more so if one of them is undertaking it alone, than it would have been when they were still relatively fit and both still with us.

I think these arrangements do nothing but, as one pp so eloquently put it, 'kick the can down the road'.

Swipe left for the next trending thread