AIBU to feel cross and frustrated with mum? Money, mortgage, inheritance

[minifingerz]

I've posted about this on mumsnet before, but the situation has changed a bit in the past year.

The back story: dad did equity release on parental home a few years before he died. My mum never fully understood what she was signing her name to - she didn't understand the concept of compound interest, still doesn't.

Five years on from dad's death and mum now (now 81) lives in the family home with my older sister, who raised a 150K interest only mortgage on her salary to pay off the equity release, and is servicing this fairly large mortgage while she lives at home with my mum. If she hadn't done that it is likely the bulk of the value of the house would have been consumed in a fairly short period of time, leaving my mum stuck in a detached house with a massive garden, which she would struggle to maintain on her own, but unable to leave as she wouldn't have enough money available after paying the equity release off to buy another cheaper property in the very expensive area where she is determined to see her days out.

Now here's the problem: dsis has psoriasis which has become very very bad recently, to the point that her hands and feet are almost completely raw, and she is struggling to get through every day in her very strenuous and responsible (and physically active) job. She has to sleep with plastic bags on her hands and feet, comes home every with blood leaking out of the dressings, and has to spend half an hour after work every day debriding and soaking her hands and feet before wrapping them in clingfilm. This results in her barely managing to keep on top of her work and suffering from quite intense anxiety about it as a knock on. I can't see how she can continue in her job and neither can she, but if she leaves how will she service the mortgage? She is 53 and would struggle to get a job that in any other sector which would be feasible for her with her health problems. She has had this problem for years and has tried many different treatments which until recently kept it under control enough to allow her to function. In the last year however it's got really out of control.

Anyway, a family friend died earlier this year and left my mum 120K and my sister 30K, enough money to pay off the mortgage. As soon as my mum phoned me and told me about the inheritance I said 'brilliant, now you can pay the mortgage off and you can both stop worrying about your future in the house' (ie, can you afford to stay or will you have to sell and downsize if you can't pay the mortgage). DB said exactly the same, and so did my mum's best friend.

All fine. Except not, as mum has decided that she wants to use her part of the inheritance to get the (perfectly decent and functional) kitchen remodelled, go on cruises, and generally live it up, while my sister carries on servicing the mortgage.

My brother put it to my mum that my sister is really struggling with work, to which my mum's response was 'she's lucky to live here in such a lovely house, she's made her choices, now she has to deal with the consequences'.

I feel gutted and angry with my mum. My sister has grafted all her life and never complained. She has never had anyone who's 'got her back'. Her ex partner of 19 years was profoundly selfish and insisted on separate homes/finances until she left him. Then her next partner offered her the security of a home together, but turned out to be a violent abuser. He was a gambler and an alcoholic who ran through all the equity my sister had when she sold her flat to move in with him, and she ended up back in a rented property at 43 with nothing in the bank. She has never asked my parents for anything and is the most honest, sincere, principled person I know. I feel distressed that my mum can't take her needs into account, given that my sister is struggling so badly with her psoriasis. My mum's quality of life is so good for someone of her age. She has a very comfortable income, is active, is still driving, has enough of an income to eat out several times a week, go on holiday with her friends, employ a cleaner and a part-time gardener, and put money in the bank every week. She has a better social life than me and she hasn't worked full time since she was in her 20's. I could understand her wanting to live it up on her inheritance if she didn't already have a really good quality of life, hadn't already travelled the world several times over, been on a cruise, lived in beautiful homes etc. She's said that she wants to give some of the money to my db and me, but we've said firmly that we don't want it, that we want her to pay off the mortgage with it so that this stops being a worry for her and my sister.

It's like she can't compute that not paying off the mortgage means that my sister is trapped on a treadmill of full-time work which she is becoming too ill to cope with. If I try to get this point across to her she gets angry with me and closes down. Tells me to stop upsetting her, that she's old and can't deal with people upsetting her.

I feel oddly distressed about how hard-faced my mum is being. She's a loving person, but she's not behaving like a loving mother to my sister in relation to this issue. I can't see how it's going to pan out right now, and I'm worried about it causing a serious rift between us.

I came in the thread to mention humira - I see someone already has. Please, please get her to push and nag and generally make a fuss until she is given a chance to try this or another drug in this class. It's a fortnightly injection and it is truly life changing.
It is very expensive but frankly she needs it. She may need to be very pushy.

At the moment the plan is for it to be gradually phased in from 2017 howabout - though of course things can change!

I do think the world is divided not just into Austen/non-Austen, dog lovers/not etc, but also those who really want to leave/give to their dc, and those who do not and who think that once their dc have grown up, that is it. Neither group is right or wrong, but I think they genuinely don't 'feel' each other's position, and never the twain shall meet. Perhaps the former group are becoming more predominant as it becomes more difficult to buy a house without some kind of parental help - I don't know.

I keep thinking about this thread and I think you are in an awful situation here OP. Fwiw if some of the reasoning was inheritance protection, I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to protect the "family wealth" and not want to see it go down the pan. I don't think most people would be happy to see the value of an expensive house written off for a £50k loan. Also, it's heart breaking if one person you care about is being selfish with respect to another you care about, and not helping when they need it (particularly if the person being selfish is your mother).

That said, the problem is that you can have your opinions about what someone should do, but there are limits to how much it is ethical to put pressure on, if the person doesn't want to do it.

I was thinking what I would do in this situation and thought I would have bought the er from your DM. Then I realised this is effectively what your sister has done, but has done it by raising a mortgage on the house. I am shocked that no-one seems to have got proper legal and financial advice when setting this up. How was your sister planning to pay off the loan at the end? Did you DM really understand that she was putting her house at risk if the mortgage can not be repaid, as seems a real possibility?

I am very sympathetic with your situation but I do feel you are slightly trying to have it both ways. If the purpose of your sister paying off the er was to give your DM more options, then this can't now be used to restrict her options (eg she must not spend the £120k and pay off sister's mortgage).

It sounds like paying off the er was to protect against a hypothetical situation in the future which may never arise (need to downsize or go into residential care) and now the fact of having done this seems to be making a less hypothetical situation (loss of the house due to mortgage foreclosure) more likely and also now your DM's responsibility, when before she would not have had this liability.

Sorry for v long post. I dont think you have talked about the possibility of losing the house, OP, I think this has been said by other posters. But I am just trying to understand the situation.

I think the emotional damage that this sort of situation can cause is immense but I do think that you have to accept it is your DM's right to spend her money as she wishes, even if this is not how you would act and you find it upsetting to see the effects on others. Your sister does now have a sizeable lump sum which she can use to pay the mortgage for a while. I would suggest that both she and your DM need independent financial and legal advice (as in truly independent, not finding someone to tell your DM what the family think).

I think continuing in a situation where your DMs security in her home is dependent on your sister being able to pay the mortgage, when this seems in doubt and when in any case there is no plan as to how to repay the sum at the end of the mortgage is untenable. I don't think the answer is to assume it is your DMs responsibility to pay the mortgage off (it would be lovely if she wanted to do this, but she doesn't). She didn't choose to take out a mortgage in her 70/80s.

I hope you manage to get it sorted out.

This thread certainly gives food for thought. It is an odd situation for an adult DC to be paying for the privilege of being her DM's housekeeper when the DM has a good secure income, money in the bank and liquid assets. It could be viewed that the adult DC is in fact transferring her inheritance backwards?

My Uncle lived with my grandparents throughout my childhood which allowed them to stay together in their own home until they died. They never charged him rent and eventually he bought the house to give him security. When he died he split his estate between his siblings' children.

I do think the world is divided not just into Austen/non-Austen, dog lovers/not etc, but also those who really want to leave/give to their dc, and those who do not and who think that once their dc have grown up, that is it. Neither group is right or wrong, but I think they genuinely don't 'feel' each other's position, and never the twain shall meet.

Ciutadella I think this is very true. What I struggle with (and this does perhaps relate to the OPs OP which was as much about the emotional aspects as the practical/financial) is how to accept this without it damaging your relationship with your parents if you are on different sides of the divide.

I really struggle with this, to be honest, and I don't see how it can't be a major factor in defining the relationship you have with your offspring. I just can't imagine wanting to spend huge amounts on holidays, home improvements and all those consumer lifestyle things when I could use the money to help my children (and any future grandchildren).

To be honest this has really effected my relationship with my mother. Very difficult to express what I am trying to say but how can you not judge and feel close to someone who prioritises yet another unneccessary room makeover to helping grandchildren who do not benefit from free uni and will really struggle to get on the housing ladder. I completely accept it is everyone's right to use their money as they wish. But there is a cost in terms of your relationships.

I probably sound very bitter, and to be honest I am bitter and I wish I wasn't. Any suggestions on how to rise above it gratefully received (may be of help OP too).

mini, another way to cut this is: wouldn't your Dsis have the same issue if she had taken out a mortgage on her own place rather than your DMs?

Essentially the problem is that your Dsis is vulnerable and in pain and your DM could do something about it without undue sacrifice but chooses not to; the financial complexities with the house are kind of background.

Moreover, from some of your throw away comments, it sounds like your 'D'M failing to look after all of you goes back to your childhood, when it definitely was her responsibility, even if it isn't now. To be honest, the thing that seems most mysterious to me on this thread is why you are still on good terms with her.

Also, if your DM did pay off the mortgage, she would then be in a position to take out another ER if she wanted to, or to charge your Dsis rent if she wanted to - it would give her much more actual control over her finances (though also more responsibility, which she might not like).

WrongTrouser I feel the same and especially given the lack of practical or emotional support offered by mine as even a child, I kind of feeling inheritance is the bloody least they can do but no.
I do realise though some people suffer horrendous grief when their parents die, at least I guess I'm spared that

"I am shocked that no-one seems to have got proper legal and financial advice when setting this up. How was your sister planning to pay off the loan at the end?"

They did have advice. I think the idea at the time was to put on hold the possibility of downsizing until the end of the mortgage term, which would coincide with dsis's retirement or possibly earlier if my mother passed away (she is over 80 so that's always a possibility). Also, at the time there was a chance that they would be able to sell off part of the garden for development and that would have paid off the loan. They had been approached by two developers about it, and recently were approached by a third. That now looks like it won't happen, because of various complex planning issues and also because of a fucking nimby bastard ex-councillor who has moved in opposite and who sees challenging planning applications in the village as his full time retirement job The money left to them in the will of a family friend came just after they heard from the developers that they weren't going to go ahead with the project. It seemed like a wonderful stroke of luck. But it's bringing family angst in its wake....

For all those people suggesting my sister just leave - that won't happen. Financial issues aside she would not leave my mum to live alone just at that point in my mum's life where she is starting to need help. My mum couldn't cope with living alone. She really couldn't. She feels lonely as it is, despite her busy social life and close friends (she has many) because of missing my dad. She has never lived alone in her adult life and certainly doesn't want to start now.

We are a very close family. I see and talk to my siblings every week. We really love each other and we love our mum, however difficult she is. I don't love her dog though. The dog can do one

"Essentially the problem is that your Dsis is vulnerable and in pain and your DM could do something about it without undue sacrifice but chooses not to; the financial complexities with the house are kind of background"

Essentially this is what it boils down to for me. This is the source of the emotional distress that I feel about this issue.

WrongTrouser I struggle with the same emotions

It's really hard to articulate without being accused of being 'grabby'

My mum couldn't cope with living alone. She really couldn't. She feels lonely as it is, despite her busy social life and close friends (she has many) because of missing my dad. She has never lived alone in her adult life and certainly doesn't want to start now.

I think you need to get her on the mailing list of a developer specialising in retirement communities.

Can your sister drastically cut down on the amount she pays towards household bills? If she feels treated like a lodger why not merely pay the 'extra' costs she creates rather than 50%. Or as she only owns 25% of the house only pay this much and reconsider how much she pays for cleaner/gardener which are more luxury than necessity. It might make your mother realise that she benefits from your sister's involvement.

The inheritance your sister has could either pay off some of the interest free loan, thus reducing monthly payments or pay for 4 years' payments. Could your sister check her interest rate and remortgage i.e.get a lower rate possibly with another bank. The monthly payments seem high so she's either on a high rate or has extra insurances e.g. life/critical illness cover. Again worth reviewing these as banks have been known to oversell products that give lots of commission.

Could your mother pay half her inheritance to the mortgage? £60,000 is still a lot of money and would bring monthly payments down considerably.

Apologies if you've already considered these options.

Also, at the time there was a chance that they would be able to sell off part of the garden for development and that would have paid off the loan.

Hang on a minute, OP. The fact that this^ was ever even talked about suggests that your mother does^ accept that paying off the capital sum was one day going to be her responsibility. Your sister's health aside, surely the deal with the developer falling through means that DM needs, and knows she needs, a Plan B (fairly obviously either using the inheritance, or selling up and moving).

Do you think she would be more amenable to discussing it in these terms rather than in the context of being guilt tripped about your sister?

OP, when your dsis took out the interest only mortgage did the bank insist on a 'repayment vehicle' being specified - these days I think lenders would for a new interest only mortgage, but perhaps not when dsis took it out? If it did, what was the repayment vehicle - I'd be surprised if it was the sale of the house/downsizing, because your dsis was not the sole owner, though I suppose it's not impossible?

Reason I'm asking is whether Dsis has an endowment or pension or something that may be available to pay off at the end of the mortgage term?
Wrongtrouser I think you are so right about the ethics of putting pressure on someone to use money in a certain way - here it is clouded by the fact that there is concern for dsis, but that does not really alter the fundamental ethical position that it would be wrong to do so. I know that op herself does not intend to put pressure on her dmother at all, but that possibility has been implicit in some of the posts on the thread I think.

I just can't imagine wanting to spend huge amounts on holidays, home improvements and all those consumer lifestyle things when I could use the money to help my children (and any future grandchildren) - I agree!

But I think one way to understand it better is actually referred to by op in the thread. Her dparents both had a very hard financial start in life. Son of unmarried parents in the 1930s and 1940s would have been a very different position from now (and in fact dfather must have been hugely talented to become a senior Foreign official having left school at 14 - did I remember that right?).

I do think some people who start out with money really tight don't ever lose the fear of going back there - and that may explain why they would prefer to keep control of their money than give it to dc/dgc.

1. Collect financial details including outgoings on the house and sister's loan (not paying down is appalling and in the range of Equity Release). Make sure you have all the documents and figures.
2. Contact financial advisor and solicitor. Preferably not the one who suggested the original equity release to DF.
3. Decide what might best be done including alternatives.
4. Get the solicior and IFA to address DM without you. I gather some people object to an older man coming in to advise but clearly the OP DM is of that generation and appears not to understand finances and let her husband decide.

I was lucky enough to have a mother whose only concern was her children and we repaid in kind. But she was still canny with money at around OPs DM's age. It's unforgiveable that people don't understand compound interest - should be taught in school as opposed to geometry - when you think people still take out loans from Wonga

No - no conditions re: an endowment or anything. That is odd isn't it? But that's the situation. I know the solicitor was very much at pains to stress to my mum that at the end of the loan term the house may have to be sold to pay off the loan, but I suspect my mum was working on the assumption that she will have shuffled off this mortal coil by then.

"To be honest, the thing that seems most mysterious to me on this thread is why you are still on good terms with her."

She's very loving and always has been, to our children too. The failure to support us financially as young adults and shipping us off to boarding schools I think was more my dad's doing than hers. In particular she became extremely depressed when we went to boarding school.

I think I understand a little more now, so thank you for taking the time to explain.

It sounds as though this is a matter for gentle, patient persuasion with your mother that may require considerable tact and diplomacy, and teamwork from you and your brother. I know you said that she flings off in a huff when you raise this, but I would take that as a good sign that there's something she isn't comfortable about in there. By the sounds of things, your DM isn't used to making decisions and has somewhat abnegated her responsibilities to your father her whole life - so in asking her to be responsible for the first time, you are really moving her a long way outside her usual zone of operation. That requires love, patience, resourcefulness, time and persistence.

I think your DSis needs to see an IFA irrespective of the inheritance aspect, OP. The fact that she has an interest only mortgage on a property she has no claim on and no repayment vehicle at the end of the term coupled with the fact that she appears to be paying an exorbitant amount per month are worries. She/you all should perhaps look to change the mortgage to a joint repayment mortgage in both names (DSis and DM) with a tenancy in common laying down your sister's share in the house. Your DSis does seem to be in a very vulnerable situation at the moment.

I think your mother is being very selfish. It's all very well for her to think that she will probably have died before the end of the term so it won't affect her but what about your sister? I can't believe she doesn't care what happens to her. To this end I agree about the idea of getting an IFA and/or Solicitor to sit down with her and spell it out in uncertain terms as she is clearly not listening to you.

Yoga i think dsis does already own a share in the house - i can't see how she could have got a mortgage without it (though even so am surprised she got i o mortgage with no repayment vehicle when she doesn't own 100% of the property, but this was some time ago). I agree with you about an ifa/solicitor, but i think from what op says money and emotions are very much entwined here, for everyone.

It is upsetting for op but ultimately she cannot change the relationship between dsis and dm - only they can do that. Interestingly, the more i have thought about and read this thread, the more i think ,'suggest independent advice for each - separately - but then keep out of it and let dmum and dsis resolve it as they will' is the best way for op. ALthough that is very hard to do when you care deeply about the two people involved.

ah, okay, thanks Ciutadella I had taken OP's comment about no vehicle to repay the mortgage as suggesting that DSis has no formal interest in the property.

Totally agree that both DM and DSis need to take separate independent advice and possibly legal advice too.