AIBU to feel cross and frustrated with mum? Money, mortgage, inheritance

[minifingerz]

I've posted about this on mumsnet before, but the situation has changed a bit in the past year.

The back story: dad did equity release on parental home a few years before he died. My mum never fully understood what she was signing her name to - she didn't understand the concept of compound interest, still doesn't.

Five years on from dad's death and mum now (now 81) lives in the family home with my older sister, who raised a 150K interest only mortgage on her salary to pay off the equity release, and is servicing this fairly large mortgage while she lives at home with my mum. If she hadn't done that it is likely the bulk of the value of the house would have been consumed in a fairly short period of time, leaving my mum stuck in a detached house with a massive garden, which she would struggle to maintain on her own, but unable to leave as she wouldn't have enough money available after paying the equity release off to buy another cheaper property in the very expensive area where she is determined to see her days out.

Now here's the problem: dsis has psoriasis which has become very very bad recently, to the point that her hands and feet are almost completely raw, and she is struggling to get through every day in her very strenuous and responsible (and physically active) job. She has to sleep with plastic bags on her hands and feet, comes home every with blood leaking out of the dressings, and has to spend half an hour after work every day debriding and soaking her hands and feet before wrapping them in clingfilm. This results in her barely managing to keep on top of her work and suffering from quite intense anxiety about it as a knock on. I can't see how she can continue in her job and neither can she, but if she leaves how will she service the mortgage? She is 53 and would struggle to get a job that in any other sector which would be feasible for her with her health problems. She has had this problem for years and has tried many different treatments which until recently kept it under control enough to allow her to function. In the last year however it's got really out of control.

Anyway, a family friend died earlier this year and left my mum 120K and my sister 30K, enough money to pay off the mortgage. As soon as my mum phoned me and told me about the inheritance I said 'brilliant, now you can pay the mortgage off and you can both stop worrying about your future in the house' (ie, can you afford to stay or will you have to sell and downsize if you can't pay the mortgage). DB said exactly the same, and so did my mum's best friend.

All fine. Except not, as mum has decided that she wants to use her part of the inheritance to get the (perfectly decent and functional) kitchen remodelled, go on cruises, and generally live it up, while my sister carries on servicing the mortgage.

My brother put it to my mum that my sister is really struggling with work, to which my mum's response was 'she's lucky to live here in such a lovely house, she's made her choices, now she has to deal with the consequences'.

I feel gutted and angry with my mum. My sister has grafted all her life and never complained. She has never had anyone who's 'got her back'. Her ex partner of 19 years was profoundly selfish and insisted on separate homes/finances until she left him. Then her next partner offered her the security of a home together, but turned out to be a violent abuser. He was a gambler and an alcoholic who ran through all the equity my sister had when she sold her flat to move in with him, and she ended up back in a rented property at 43 with nothing in the bank. She has never asked my parents for anything and is the most honest, sincere, principled person I know. I feel distressed that my mum can't take her needs into account, given that my sister is struggling so badly with her psoriasis. My mum's quality of life is so good for someone of her age. She has a very comfortable income, is active, is still driving, has enough of an income to eat out several times a week, go on holiday with her friends, employ a cleaner and a part-time gardener, and put money in the bank every week. She has a better social life than me and she hasn't worked full time since she was in her 20's. I could understand her wanting to live it up on her inheritance if she didn't already have a really good quality of life, hadn't already travelled the world several times over, been on a cruise, lived in beautiful homes etc. She's said that she wants to give some of the money to my db and me, but we've said firmly that we don't want it, that we want her to pay off the mortgage with it so that this stops being a worry for her and my sister.

It's like she can't compute that not paying off the mortgage means that my sister is trapped on a treadmill of full-time work which she is becoming too ill to cope with. If I try to get this point across to her she gets angry with me and closes down. Tells me to stop upsetting her, that she's old and can't deal with people upsetting her.

I feel oddly distressed about how hard-faced my mum is being. She's a loving person, but she's not behaving like a loving mother to my sister in relation to this issue. I can't see how it's going to pan out right now, and I'm worried about it causing a serious rift between us.

Now this really doesn't add up. On a salary of £30000 your sister would take home £1963 per month. Where is all her money going? I earn less than that and my wage pays a mortgage the size of hers, plus all living costs for a family of 4!!! We live just outside London so South East prices.

OP as the loan to value ratio is so good on the house could your Sister not use the £30,000 as a deposit to change to a repayment mortgage on a better rate?

This would then at least start to eat into the £150,000 and wouldn't really make any difference from your Mothers point of view.

She could do this whilst still working (as it sounds like she may have to give up work, or at least take some time off work due to her health)

DM doesn't owe dsis any money Iamswitz - she has sold a share of the house to disis. The debt is all dsis's. And as a pp has said, the value of her share may have increased - dsis may have her own equity in the house now.

Yes Mrs Lupo I think for an earlier generation downsizing meant loss of status. For subsequent generations we perhaps think we will more happily downsize, but maybe won't feel so sanguine when it actually happens! Houses do have an emotional pull, sometimes.

I think what I am trying to say in my post below op is that if you leave dm and dsis to sort it out they may well reach a decision you don't think is the right one for your dsis, or indeed your dm, - but that is up to dsis and dm. They are entitled to be as irrational or self sacrificing as they like, if they agree on that. You can't change dsis or dm, only they can do that - I know you already know this! but always worth repeating about families! (though def yes to trying to help dsis with her health issues).

I don't think anyone should be speaking sternly to dm or anyone else - they can explain rationally and clearly, and spell out all the consequences, but no need for sternness! One interpretation of this story is that dm entered into the equity release when she didn't really understand it because she felt she had no choice when presented it with df. Perhaps he spoke to her sternly, and she felt intimidated? She is only 81, no sign of mental incapacity as far as we are told - except that she disagrees with younger people, which is not conclusive! So should be treated just like any other adult.

Visited a client in a beautiful almshouse - she had sold the family home, and lived in a blissful calm light ground floor flat with one bedroom. Going back to my rambling large old hard to maintain house felt quite envious. I would be happy to do that (I think now anyway).

A large house can be a ball and chain

I don't think it's unusual for people not to want to move from their homes. I don't think it's necessarily got anything to do with status
If the DM is on an old style ex pat civil service pension then I imagine she will have a reasonable pension. I'd imagine it would be enough to look after the house and pay for some support. Maybe she wouldn't be able to take quite so many cruises if she needed more help but I wouldn't imagine she is as 'cash poor' as has been suggested.
It's also not the least bit unusual for people not to budget for care home costs.

[[http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/ageing/articles/changesintheolderresidentcarehomepopulationbetween2001and2011/2014-08-01 In 2011 Only 13.7% of people over 85 were living in care homes according to the 2011 census so whilst there is a reasonable chance you might end up in a carehome it's much more likely you won't. It might not be a sensible decision but you can understand why some older people want to spend and enjoy their money and not squirrel it away just in case.

Ultimately, it has to be up to your mother to decide what she does even if the OP and her siblings don't agree that it's the most sensible decision.

Leaving the ER has put the DM in a more tenuous situation. I'm still curious who's idea it was to get your sister to get a mortgage?

As I understand them, equity release schemes allow someone to remain in the family home until they die.

Your DM could have lived out the rest of her years in that house

But if the value of the house is eaten up by the equity release loan- which happens surprisingly quickly with compound interest- then the DM has no option but to stay in this house until she dies. When her health deteriorates, when she gets frailer, she has to stay there. She has no money to downsize or pay for private residential care.

Already she needs her adult daughter to help her with house upkeep and paying the cleaner and gardener. What if her daughter couldn't do this anymore? The mother can't downsize because her home is owned by The ER company.

The family want the mother to have options.

No you're right Chatham, I think people do also feel emotionally attached to houses they've been happy in - and the prospect of having to throw out possessions and furniture can be wrenching as well. Staying is certainly not always irrational, if you can afford it - there are pros and cons.

I also agree about people not budgeting for care costs - i think many people assume they won't need it, and statistically they may well be right and come up the right side of the bet.

Totally irrelevant but I was interested that df had gone for ER when, as Chatham says, he presumably had an index linked occ pension - it's not clear why he thought it was necessary at what sounds like quite an early stage after retirement (I'm guessing?). But maybe the costs of keeping up the house are pretty high.

Op would the plan be that dsis return 4/5 of her share of the house to dm if dm repaid 120k of the mortgage?

I do sympathise with all this, it is so awful when money and emotions and family relationships are entangled and people disagree.

"The family want the mother to have options."

But - and this is the hardest thing for us as dc to grasp I think - it is almost irrelevant what the rest of the family wants. (As it happens in this case, dm also wanted to have options and didn't like the ER once she understood it - but as a general principle, what matters is what the person herself wants. So if she had wanted to take the risk of having to stay living in a deteriorating house, unable to afford repairs, cleaners, carers, or private residential care, that would have been up to her.)

I say "almost" irrelevant rather than totally, because most people will take into account what their relations want and need when they decide on their preferred course. But if they don't they don't, and that is their prerogative. Many/?most of us have made decisions our families disagree with - that is ours!

lol, you might pop over to the Elderly Parents board, Chatham, to read some cautionary tales about just how smashingly it can work out when the other 86.3% hit the wall of elderly acopia. I'm not saying we need to bung all our old people into care homes willy-nilly - far from it - just that the choice to live 'independently' is not always an active one, nor, often, a good one, and frequently puts adult children in intolerable positions. It is all very well to want to be independent, but not very fair when such arrangements are only sustainable at high, often coerced, cost to others.

if she had wanted to take the risk of having to stay living in a deteriorating house, unable to afford repairs, cleaners, carers, or private residential care, that would have been up to her
True, but if it turns out she called it wrong and everything goes pear shaped the children will feel obliged to step in and pick up the pieces.

We can all choose to be irresponsible but often it means that those who are conscientious and carefull suffer as they feel obliged to step in and clear up the mess

MrsLupo No need for me to go to the elderly parents boards. I have my very own 94 year old lovely but stubborn-as-a-mule MIL 😂 Who insists on living independently even though she needs help. It's a four hour round trip.

My parents are in their 80's and not quite so stubborn but they don't behave sensibly either. My Dad is living life to the full and goes on four holidays a year and is aiming to blow most of his money while he is alive. He has some savings but not enough that it would provide long term carehome fees. I'm glad he enjoys life so much, he worked hard until he retired in his mid 70's. Who knows what will happen in the future. I know he is not one to regret things which is lucky as he has done a LOT of things most people would regret 😂

My lovely Mum on the other hand worries about money and deals with it by not ever thinking about it and just carrying on with life. She pays her bills but she does nothing proactive with her savings (which are all in her low interest current account ) . I find her attitude a bit childish but I don't think it's unusual.

Btw HERE is a working clicky link to the gov.uk report on numbers of people in carehome.

"Perhaps he spoke to her sternly, and she felt intimidated? "

No - he just spent years making it clear to her that she didn't need to worry her head about financial decisions. Actually she didn't even use a bank card until after his death. All her transactions in cash. All major financial decisions - including choosing the kitchen when it was made over after he took out the ER, despite the fact that he, literally, couldn't do so much as fry an egg himself, were primarily his. My mum and my dad loved each other hugely and enjoyed each other's company beyond anyone else's', but they had clearly defined gendered roles in the partnership that wouldn't be tolerated by many women today.

Nobody talks to my mum harshly. She is also extremely outspoken. Has become vastly more so since my father died. She can be pretty intimidating herself.

Would add, on the other side of the family (DH's side) my PIL are only able to stay in their home with daily visits from their children. DH puts his dad to bed three nights most weeks, and cooks dinner for his parents at least once a week. What with me working 2 or 3 evenings a week plus a day at the weekend, and being round at my mum's every Friday night, DH and I hardly see each other... ho hum :-(

OP you have been given some great advice. I am a PP whose DF did ER in full understanding of the situation. His house is also in SE so now worth over a million now though dilapidated. I didn't grow up there BTW, he moved in when I was a teen, it was hand to mouth when I was a kid. Once he began to do well financially btw he didn't help me buying a flat, weddings, no financial gifts or savings for my DC. I had full student loan etc. Got myself to and from university in the holidays even though my DF had a car by then.

My DF came from an financially insecure early life too but I don't have much sympathy with that- I did too, and now I am constantly planning how I can make things easier for my DC. We are leaving our lives living in SE shortly to make things easier financially but this is also moving away from my DF.

The irony is that thanks to ER, my DF is back into financial insecurity. ER compound interest will have ruled out downsizing by now even if he was willing to move. So he is stuck with something he can't maintain. What will happen when the roof goes?
And what's going to happen soon when he needs care. Neither of us have savings to pay for that. I won't be living nearby soon.

He's been selfish and hurtful (putting it mildly) I feel, when he could well have afforded to help his family.

My DF also considers himself left wing and mentions the massive national house price rises and difficulty the makes for everyone. He is not living oblivious in a 1950s bubble not knowing what things cost these days.
If your DM has watched the news at any point in the last 20 years she won't be ignorant of that either. Plus I bet some of her naice friends will have made some financial gifts to their DC and DGC. Your DM has chosen to do something else.

As is often said on MN, 'when someone tells you who they are, listen'.

Your DM could have downsized to sort out the ER even after your DF passed away, but she doesn't want to.

I think the key thing to making you feel OK about this in the long run, is making sure all of your siblings looks at and understands the emotional drivers behind the situation. However painful that is (and it is painful of course). whatever the financial benefits or fall outs are to each of you in the end, ultimately you all need to be OK with it emotionally or it will drive you crazy.

With good intentions your Dsis has put her own security at risk, but she needs to stop now and use her small inheritance to get a mortgage for herself wherever she can (even if she rents her new flat out and carries on living with your DM till her death because she likes being in your DM house etc).

It may be really hard to think about your DM like this because of course you want to feel that your parents care for you. But for your own sanity, I'd say you and your sibs need to protect yourselves from now on and show your DM only as much consideration as she has shown you.

"We can all choose to be irresponsible but often it means that those who are conscientious and careful suffer as they feel obliged to step in and clear up the mess."

Very true - and there is no solution to that, except perhaps to vow not to do the same thing ourselves when our turn comes!

I still think we have to leave it up to people to take their own decisions - and after all in this case, if dm wants to spend the £120k on cruises and kitchens nobody can stop her.

Having said which, I don't think op you are unreasonable to be sad about your dsis's position - it sounds awful, and I really hope she can get good help with her psoriasis.

I have read the whole thread, and taking out the emotional aspect, the bald facts are that your parents took out equity release, the dcs didn't agree with it, your sister bought it back, and now fears not making the mortgage payments.

As others have observed, it is not your dm's problem . It is the dc's problem when there is no inheritance, and your dsis is potentially homeless when dm dies. Another dm may wish to relieve the financial burden on her dd, downsize, gift monies etc etc - but your dm is prioritising the status quo, which she arranged to do before the ER was messed about with.

Also, like others, the future has a big question mark over it regarding your dsis's ownership of the house and inheritance. What if your dsis meets someone and gets married?

Everyone keeps saying these equity loan things would have meant she couldn't move into residential care - so what happens to people who don't have an £800,000 house to start with then ?

It's infuriating reading all the posts saying that the DM was fine with the ER and should have been left alone. (1) She didn't like it either when she understood it and (2) no she wasn't fine. Imagine an 80 year old living in a house too big for her to clean and unable to afford a cleaner. Garden an overgrown mass of weeds because she's not fit enough to get someone in to do it. And then one winter her boiler breaks and she has no savings, having spent everything on her holidays. She would have been utterly fucked, and stuck that way.

I'm slightly confused that others are seeing this as being all about inheritance. To me it's quite clearly not that at all. Had the op's sister not taken out the mortgage, the mum would have been left in a house without the financial means to meet the demands of upkeep and would have been effectively trapped, with no option to downsize or meet care costs should she require either option in the future.

The council finds a place for you. So no cocktail hour, outings and hairdressing salon. That being said, fil (and until lately mil) is in a home that takes mostly non-paying residents, yet the pil have paid out £200K+ so far. That is because choice is somewhat of an illusion if you have complex care needs/advanced dementia.

GiraffesAndButterflies the boiler breaking because you've gone on holidays doesn't get a lot of sympathy though does it. A single woman of 20 in that position would be told she was an idiot and to have a word with herself

RhodaBull that was as I suspected, being responsible actually doesn't seem to pay in the long run from what I've seen

If someone doesn't have assets/ savings the local authority will pay for necessary care, but it can be unpleasant and inadequate as obviously they will choose cheap options.