To wonder how the fuck we explain this to our daughters?

[OvariesBeforeBrovaries]

My DD is two, so oblivious - for now - to this. But how do we explain to girls that their rights, their body and their feelings just don't matter as much to many, many people?

How do we explain that a presidential candidate uses terms like "grab her by the pussy" and boasts about non-consensual sexual encounters, and yet he's still beloved by people across the world?

How do we explain that if she is raped, her rapist's swimming career and education is more important than her dignity, mental health and right to her body?

How do you tell her that if she reports rape - or even reports theft of a handbag, but there's evidence that she has been raped - she could be dragged through the mud, vilified, illegally named, called every name under the sun, put through hell, her rapist will likely never see justice and she'll be branded a "lying slag"?

I'm sorry, I know this is probably one of many similar threads but I don't think I've ever felt quite so angry/despairing. Why are our bodies still just a fucking commodity for men to use and throw away? Why do so many people have such vileness and hatred in their hearts for other people for the crime of having a vagina? Why are people still raising their sons to see women as property, "less than", sub-human. Why do these people still exist?

What a headfuck. I hope something changes in the near future. I have no idea how you even begin explaining that to a girl just starting to realise how the world sees and treats women.

The world is full of unfair shit. How do you explain famine? war? disease? poverty? bigotry? bullying? theft?
Nothing this man has done will change my world - he has no power, no influence. He's just a sad old git. We give him power by discussing this is as if it had substance, was worthy of debate. It isn't.

Oh come on. Ever increasing rates of rapes and pathetic number of convictions. Domestic violence- the threads you see on here every day about coercion, terrible violence, sexual assault, financial abuse. Child sexual exploitation like in Rotherham. Getting paid 19% less still. Sexting. Going to senior meetings at work and there being 9 men for every woman in the room. Objectification. Patronising dickheads in work undermining you. Ugggggh. I had 43 years of this shit so am kind of used to it, but the idea of my little girls having to grow accustomed to this bullshit, get tougher and tougher, and knowing how much it hurts some times makes me want to vomit. Why should they have to? It is SO wrong and the idea of another generation dealing with this but now with smart phones?? Good god....

Nb I am not a defeatist loser, I do lots to empower them, lean in big time and all that, but still - I can't beat this patriarchy stuff.

To me, it feels like if this doesn't get you down you just haven't thought enough about it yet.

StarDiamonds spot on. You teach your children. Make them smart.

And yes I have DDs and a DSS...now young adults.

Comtesse No point wallowing in it though, no matter which way you cut it that's not going to help.

You can't change the world but you can shape your children's attitudes towards it. Crap goes on, always has, always will but the best you can do is teach your DCs (male or female) how to handle and improve situations, where possible.

Of course it gets us all down. But I prefer to put my energy into other stuff. Instead of tearing your hair out worrying about how to explain this idiot, why not put the same amount of time into showing your DC 10 amazing examples of empowered women who made a difference. I'm 51 years old and just bloody refuse to let trump push the dialogue back by 20-30 years. I won't follow him into the pit.
Read up on Steve Biko and the black consciousness movement. Just as they rejected the terms of white dialogue in South Africa, I refuse to engage with this this bollocks as if it has merit. I will not waste 10 seconds of my life worrying about this.

Star ok wallowing won't help but Hama Beads won't solve much either no?

I'm 23 weeks pg with a boy, so am making sure I get it right now so I know what to teach him once he's here.

Girl says no - hey, she probably means yes. How can she resist your manly ways?!
Girl is unconscious - well if she was awake I'm sure she'd say yes so you crack on, sweetheart.
Girl is too drunk to consent - look, if she were sober, I'm sure she'd say yes. Remember, you have those manly ways. And anyway, she probably won't remember in the morning...

Have I missed anything?

Marking place for Obama speech Really interesting thread

Comtesse Who said they did? Point was not overly gender stereotyping of young children and driving home "differences" between girls and boys from an early age. I would have thought that was obvious.

Why do you feel so bad about it though? I know it's depressing and annoying, but there is equally a lot that is changing and getting better. I am in my 40s, was brought up by a business-owning, ass-kicking type mother, went to an all-girls high achieving secondary school, have worked in a male-dominated environment as a professional and have never felt inferior to the men. I don't feel inferior to any man to be honest. I'm just one woman, but nobody explained to me the angst of being a woman in this world. My mother was too busy running her business and my teachers were too busy educating us and expecting us to be high achievers in whatever field we chose - nothing was off-limits.

Hence I am a big believer in how you bring up children shapes their attitudes for the future.

Hama beads definitely have a place in that

I understand your fears and depression about the Trump debates. But as the mother of a girl and a boy I have had to not load the debate that one gender is a victim and one an oppressor. Could've been quite hard on a 2 year old boy.

So the best thing you can do is to live your values and principles and encourage your children to question behaviours and opinions in the public arena. I've lived my feminism - so no need to explain that women are equal to men - I am and they see it. Our job as parents is to let our children become independent thinking people in their own right - to encourage enquiring minds and to challenge orthodoxy - of whatever vein. As they emerge into teenagers they will necessarily challenge anything they have been spoonfed as orthodoxy - so if you've laid it on too thick they might feel it important to reject your biases. So better to give them critical tools and encourage intelligent debate. Otherwise it just words that a smart and increasingly independent brain might want to reject.

In my job i challenge injustice and prejudice everyday, at home I encourage my kids to develop their own views. And guess what my 16 year old daughter is the biggest advocate of rights of women and everyone! Because she worked it out for herself and I'm proud of her principles as an independent woman. At two? I was mainly demonstrating the joy and love of life. See a hill, run down it. Turn off ever light in the house and play hide and seek. Fill a roasting tin with paint and walk all over rolls of paper. Bake clay into christmas tree decorations... all in good time.

YANBU. I don't have children yet, but still yanbu. We live in a male dominated society. No matter how much things seem to have changed they haven't really. Women are still 'lower' than men. Their needs trump ours. Women in my town are still banned from going in a certain pubs snooker hall. It's ingrained in us from a young age that the world is a dangerous place for women. Were told not to walk home in the dark, and to wear jeans not skirts, and not to get drunk, less something happens. We adopt self preservation strategies like pretending to talk on the phone when near a man on the streets. Were taught we should appreciate wolf whistling. No mention Of The men shouldn't make us feel this way - it's all about how we need to protect ourselves, how were somehow to blame if we don't. I've heard people say dv is fine if the woman is having an affair. It's a marvellous thing round here for a man to change a nappy - yet it is a given that the mother is capable. There's a reason the reported rape stats are low, because we don't get believed any way. I volunteer with victims of dv and the majority don't trust the police. Eben after the legislation and guildlines, they label them as being all the same. I'm not saying every officer lives up to that view but actions in the past have an effect now. Perhaps sexism is less obvious now than years ago but it's definitely still there, in society. I've always thought myself a feminist but now I'm really having my eyes opened. I think women have as much right as men and would never victim blame - doesn't mean I feel Safe on a bus in the evening though or walking home at night

It's depressing isn't it. But we have to teach all our children that this behaviour is wrong. We bring up our boys and girls to be feminists. And that means equality.

My daughter found out today it's only recently that law was changed so first Born girl could be queen if she had a brother and was genuinely shocked. She's learning early that we are equal and I hope that will develop as she gets older into equality when it comes to behaviour you talk about. But it's just as important to tech my DS this too.

One thing that has annoyed me at school is attitude of a few primary boys to girls - - kind of girls are stupid, can't do maths or sports etc. Where are they getting this cos I'm pretty sure it can't be their mums. I tell DD to answer back in this and not ignore. I can see her questioning this in her head and wondering why no one says this about boys.
Equally I was annoyed in P1 when one boy was chasing girls and hugging and kissing the girls It was dismissed and laughed off as boys will be boys, they're all young etc. My daughter didn't like and was upset by it but teacher didn't take it seriously until I spoke to her and said so what what age do you think it is ok for my DD to say it's not ok for a boy to grab her and kiss her when she's saying no and fighting him off?

For me it may well have been a game and harmless but it was important for that boy to learn if someone said no then he needed to stop. If he'd been hitting someone who was shouting no it be seen as serious problem.

Teach your dd the best possible skills to make the world a place fit for her. And let her know how amazing and valuable she is.

And Trump is an evil sad bastard, my daughter calls him Fart. He won't win and one day he will go the way of all dinosaurs.

But it is right to be angry, this shit should make us angry!

Your dd won't have to deal with him, so prepare her for what she will deal with (age-appropriately) and help her make the world a better place for the 51% and for all marginalised people.

Oh and Ovaries well done and thank you for this post. It's good to see the majority of posters taking this seriously and agreeing we have big changes still to make but so many are trying. It's depressing that we actually have to have governments putting money into tackling violence against women whether it's FGM Or reporting rape or getting people to leave domestic Abuse. But at least by doing that we can tackle issue and name it and shame it.
Misogyny sexism violence against women should be discussed and this exactly kind of forum where it should be.

For AG and anyone put off reporting and prosecuting their rape in the wake of the Ched Evans decision, please have a read of this extremely well-informed blog post from a legal expert.

It is absolutely NOT routine for the defence to be allowed to bring up the victim's previous sexual history, and the fact that Ched Evans' legal team did so (and were able or motivated to) is both very unusual AND connected to the high-profile nature of the case, not to mention the almost bottomless pockets involved in pursuing the flimsiest of possibilities which could make his conviction appear unsafe. It simply does not apply to the vast majority of court cases, and it would be a double tragedy if what has happened were to discourage women from pursuing justice.

A few years ago, Julie Bindel wrote that rape may as well be legal in this country. Today's verdict, based on the ' new evidence' of the victim's sexual history, has just confirmed for me that it is. Unless it's a "real rape", ie you're dragged off the street, beaten black and blue and preferably by someone who is mentally ill or an immigrant, you don't have a hope in hell of getting any kind of justice.

And men know this.

Bit of Fun is right: ths was an exception.

it of Fun:They had to be given permission by the judge though, I believe?

On a compelling and unusual legal basis. It is very far from routine.

Trump is a rapist, and Clinton is a rape apologist. One of them is going to be President. What does that say?

Memories why is Clinton a rape apologist?

YADNBA OP. Being the mother of young daughters I am also dismayed by the seeming acceptability and recent nornalisation of mysogony in society. Of course it's always been there but I think we perceived things to have got a little better. In fact, it seems we haven't moved on much since the 1970's. Sadly the same goes for racism. I thought we were a better society than this.

Shame on some of these posters who clearly couldn't however give a shit.

I've posted on another thread the despicable nature of so many aspects of this case, but to answer the OP I'll start by saying I'm old and always lived in the UK. I was brought up in a society that was sexist, racists, homophobic, white is right and being male even better. Patriarchal certainly. Parents, free church evangelical Christians – ten commandments and so on. One of the church elders abused me and had enough intelligence to groom my parents.

Between DP and me we have four daughters, all in management positions – that would not have happened back then. Similarly, equality has moved forward, not very much I agree, but it's only by parents talking to their daughters and sons about the right way to live that further progress can be made. Believe in your own values, believe that ideas of equality must be passed on and believe in your own skills.

Within my anger, I'm hoping that the outcry of this particular case will enable the law to be looked at and the condemnation of all the family of CE will always be part of their lives. Although I no longer believe in any Deity or sacred writings, I hope, and it can only be a hope, that one day they will wake in the middle of the night, sweating and agitated, realising just exactly what happened to that girl in that hotel room.