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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder how the fuck we explain this to our daughters?

178 replies

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 14/10/2016 19:12

My DD is two, so oblivious - for now - to this. But how do we explain to girls that their rights, their body and their feelings just don't matter as much to many, many people?

How do we explain that a presidential candidate uses terms like "grab her by the pussy" and boasts about non-consensual sexual encounters, and yet he's still beloved by people across the world?

How do we explain that if she is raped, her rapist's swimming career and education is more important than her dignity, mental health and right to her body?

How do you tell her that if she reports rape - or even reports theft of a handbag, but there's evidence that she has been raped - she could be dragged through the mud, vilified, illegally named, called every name under the sun, put through hell, her rapist will likely never see justice and she'll be branded a "lying slag"?

I'm sorry, I know this is probably one of many similar threads but I don't think I've ever felt quite so angry/despairing. Why are our bodies still just a fucking commodity for men to use and throw away? Why do so many people have such vileness and hatred in their hearts for other people for the crime of having a vagina? Why are people still raising their sons to see women as property, "less than", sub-human. Why do these people still exist?

What a headfuck. I hope something changes in the near future. I have no idea how you even begin explaining that to a girl just starting to realise how the world sees and treats women.

OP posts:
TheDowagerCuntess · 14/10/2016 21:09

I know what you mean - ignorance is bliss.

I plan to equip her as best I can (she's only 6) - but in my heart, I know that we will never actually fix this, if we don't talk to our sons.

I look at my little DS who's so sensitive, empathetic, caring and considerate - and I wonder where, and how, it all goes wrong for so many men.

TheDowagerCuntess · 14/10/2016 21:11

And not the men I actually know, I hasten to add.

Why am I surrounded by such decent men, and yet men at large are dysfunctional enough to be causing this problem.

I hate to raise the word, but this is the patriarchy, I suppose...

cdtaylornats · 14/10/2016 21:19

Rolf Harris is in jail for things he did 10 years ago. A long list of people are under investigation for things they did 10 years ago.

RoseGoldHippie · 14/10/2016 21:20

Demon - I would just like to point out that what I said really was that what he is saying publicly as in what he seems to be completely acceptable infront of millions of people is scary and he speaks discrimination for all different types of people not just women.

Don't know how that screws over both sexes? Hmm I called him a dickhead not all men and I certainly didn't say men are incabable of empathy etc. If that is how my post came off then I too am a dickhead right now Wink

MadsZero · 14/10/2016 21:25

I agree with some of your post OP but wasn't the trump thing said in a private conversation to a friend? I have seen and heard thousands of women talk like that about blokes too (famous or otherwise Orlando Bloom in his Pirate days)

I know the thread has moved on somewhat from this, but I think it's important to note that not only was it not a private conversation, it was a conversation that took place at work.

Trump was guest starring on a TV show and this conversation took place while they were waiting for another staff member to arrive by bus. Trump starts talking about this staff member and notes that he needs some tic-tacs in case he can't help himself and just starts kissing her. This is what leads to the conversation about how women let him do anything he wants, etc.

Now, it's possible it was bravado - he never would have started kissing her without her consent. But since you can hear him shaking out the tic-tacs on tape as he discusses needing them..?

As to the OP - yeah it's terrifying. My daughter's not even here yet and this frightens me. Unlike some others though, I think I'd be more scared of a son. I know how to be a woman in this world, even if it makes me angry a lot of the time. I don't know what it's like to be a man. I see that toxic meatgrinder of aggressive expectation and forced masculinity, that teaches sweet, caring boys to hide their feelings, to dehumanise women... I'd be so scared of that happening to my son. And not being a man who has experienced fighting against it, I would be scared of failing to teach him how.

So like, you seem like you see this pretty clearly, OP. You seem like you've learned how to recognise this for what it is, rather than internalising it. Have faith your daughter will learn from your example.

romanrainsalot · 14/10/2016 21:35

Apparently you can spell it out in candles in Tesco
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2755479-Someone-was-clearly-bored-in-my-local-Tesco-tonight?trending=1

romanrainsalot · 14/10/2016 21:39

When she is old enough, show her Michelle Obama's speech from today. Oh and let her read the works of Maya Angelou.

Wouldn't it be nice if in 2016 this wasn't even an issue? We have the vote, can earn the higher salary in the household but can't be protected from creepy weirdos for whom our bodies are playthings.

StarDiamonds · 14/10/2016 21:43

Well OP, how do you know these things? You learned, you pieced things together, you were well educated enough to make your own opinions about the world. That's how your DD will do it too.

StarDiamonds · 14/10/2016 21:52

Mads "I see that toxic meatgrinder of aggressive expectation and forced masculinity, that teaches sweet, caring boys to hide their feelings, to dehumanise women... I'd be so scared of that happening to my son."

I have boys. They are being brought up to respect people's feelings. My boys have many friends of both boys and girls. They play with both (at school), sit with them and invite them and get invited to birthday parties. My sons recognise that sometimes boys and girls like to play with different toys, but there is no "Urgh, it's a girl/that's girly/" type conversations. When the time comes for dating, I will shape our conversations to specifics of how women are treated, making sure that respect carries on.

I had many friends as boys as a teenager, in fact I had more platonic friends who were boys than girls at one point, and they were all lovely, funny, respectful guys. I didn't experience the "dehuminisation of women" that you mention and I don't expect my boys to do that either.

Postchildrenpregranny · 14/10/2016 21:53

Watch Michelle Obama's speech Truly inspiring and should help

Original poster
OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 14/10/2016 22:01

The last thing I want is for my daughter to learn about sexual assault in the way I did. My experience is nowhere near as bad as many, many women's, but suffice to say I would be heartbroken if my daughter learned about the oppression and objectification of women in the same way. I think that's why I'm so frustrated with it all.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 14/10/2016 22:04

OP, YANBU.

I had a long conversation with DS(11) yesterday about the gender pay gap. He couldn't grasp the concept that women - on the whole - are paid less then men - on the whole - often for performing identical roles. He just couldn't see why this should be the case. We have to raise our sons to be skeptical of the status quo, to challenge inequities and rail against the patriarchy.

BananaThePoet · 14/10/2016 22:05

YANBU.
And it is even worse for women if they also have any type of neurodiversity or are black.
Did you hear what happened to that black hospital doctor on a plane from Detroit when she tried to help a passenger in distress?
It really does feel as if the world is regressing instead of progressing.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 14/10/2016 22:05

Yanbu

I had to explain to 14 year old dd that if she goes to a room with a boy at a party or his house that it is giving him consent and thats what boys think

BECAUSE APPARENTLY EVERYONE KNOWS THAT

She was a bit shocked to say the least

No idea how i explain this one

kiwipie · 14/10/2016 22:17

YANBU.

Some people on here, seriously Hmm

It scares me for out girls. It scares me that I will teach my son wrong from right, but society will tell him he's untouchable. He isn't, and I'll try my hardest to teach him.

TheDowagerCuntess · 14/10/2016 22:19

StarDiamonds - that's fantastic. Amazing even.

But you can see that not everyone's experience is like this. You're talking as if we shouldn't have a single concern in this area.

As I've already said, I'm surrounded by lovely men - but that doesn't mean I can't see what's going on in the world.

Where has Donald Trump's mentality spring from, if in fact all men are so decent and respectful?

Comtesse · 14/10/2016 22:23

My girls are 3 and 6. How will I teach them to deal with creepy guys on public transport? How about guys in vans shouting "show us your tits"? Or not getting a pay rise because you've been on maternity leave? How to unpick all this shit we deal with all the time?? I do not know, I just don't. YANBU.

Haggisfish · 14/10/2016 22:24

I think most of us on here will try and do the right thing by our own dc but I agree it feels like society as a whole is moving backwards. I watch ex on the beach and big brother and it's just awful to see the way women degrade themselves and men degrade them too, because they think that's what they have to do to be successful.

MadsZero · 14/10/2016 22:31

StarDiamonds - Oh, I absolutely know it's possible and if the scans are wrong and I actually end up with a son, I will do by utmost to raise him with enough love and security to withstand these outside pressures and to be himself and to grow into a confident, caring man. It's just, if we're talking about fears with regards to how to raise children in a way that's gender-aware, I'd find that responsibility more intimidating because I've never been through that myself.

There were a lot of comments about how scared people were when they found out they were expecting girls, and I guess I just wanted to offer an alternative viewpoint. Albeit a highly personal and not-at-all-objective one.

Roussette · 14/10/2016 22:32

Comtesse it just evolves it really does. Set the right building blocks in place as far as bringing them up and they just know. It's all about giving out the right messages when you are parenting and you even thinking of this will make it happen. (I am speaking as a totally clueless DM of DDs and SM of DS)

TheDowagerCuntess · 14/10/2016 22:34

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Never has that saying been truer.

Historically, women have had deny their sexuality and be punished to extreme degrees if they don't comply (ostracised from society - unwed mothers, single Mums responsible for all ills, Magdalene laundries, etc).

Now, we accept that women are just as sexual as men. But - young women are expected to put it ALL or there, while still being judged for expressing it too vehemently. And it's women that bear the brunt of that re expectations on us - porn, judged on our looks, etc.

It's so fucking depressing - you just want to stick your head in the sand.

CrystalGlitz · 14/10/2016 22:46

I have just had a(nother) truly frustrating conversation with DH, who totally dismissed my assertion the Donald Trump is not the only man in a position of power to abuse his authority. Apparently it can't be possible that this also happens all over the world and not just the US presidential race.
HOW can I help him to understand that women face misogyny, oppression, objectification and sexual assault day in, day out?
I need help here. We have a teen DS and two DDs, yet DHs naivety astounds and worries me.

Alwayschanging1 · 14/10/2016 23:01

FFS - this does not change a damn thing.
It's hardly news that a man in a powerful position exploits women. It's only news because he's running for president.

The fight is the same as it has always been. The message to your daughters is no different than it would have been 1 month ago.
If any thing, it is progress because it is being flagged up as wrong. 20 years ago this would not have even been newsworthy.
Pervs like him do not define either my or my daughters self-worth.
We grit our teeth, we keep fighting. Nothing new there.

StarDiamonds · 14/10/2016 23:01

TheDowager I'm not talking about it as though we shouldn't have a single concern in this area at all. I don't really get the despairing tone of some of the posters though.

Although it does go on, if you have daughters you can teach them how to stand up for themselves and ignore or avoid if possible the idiots in the world. If you have sons you can teach them the same but also to not buy into the macho posturing and objectification of women. Encourage friendships with the opposite sex as children from a young age. Don't overdo or over-encourage the gender divide stuff. I have got Hama beads for my sons for example, one set is planets and stars, the other has hearts and flowers in it. They make things out of both sets, using all the colours and making up their own designs. They love baking, they love Skylanders. They have a toy garage, they also have a dolls house.

In short, the crap goes on in the world but your DCs don't have to either be at the brunt of it (or if they are, they can deal with it) or perpetuate it against others. Much of that is down to how you bring them up and the respect you teach them day by day.

yellowgladys · 14/10/2016 23:03

yanbu OP I have a dd and have the same fears for her