To wonder how the fuck we explain this to our daughters?

[OvariesBeforeBrovaries]

My DD is two, so oblivious - for now - to this. But how do we explain to girls that their rights, their body and their feelings just don't matter as much to many, many people?

How do we explain that a presidential candidate uses terms like "grab her by the pussy" and boasts about non-consensual sexual encounters, and yet he's still beloved by people across the world?

How do we explain that if she is raped, her rapist's swimming career and education is more important than her dignity, mental health and right to her body?

How do you tell her that if she reports rape - or even reports theft of a handbag, but there's evidence that she has been raped - she could be dragged through the mud, vilified, illegally named, called every name under the sun, put through hell, her rapist will likely never see justice and she'll be branded a "lying slag"?

I'm sorry, I know this is probably one of many similar threads but I don't think I've ever felt quite so angry/despairing. Why are our bodies still just a fucking commodity for men to use and throw away? Why do so many people have such vileness and hatred in their hearts for other people for the crime of having a vagina? Why are people still raising their sons to see women as property, "less than", sub-human. Why do these people still exist?

What a headfuck. I hope something changes in the near future. I have no idea how you even begin explaining that to a girl just starting to realise how the world sees and treats women.

OP... I've brought up DDs and I get what you are saying but please don't under estimate the influence a parent like you can have. You've changed your working pattern and you are showing them how it can work.

My DDs are now young adults and I just stuck with what I thought was right and my DDs now are switched on, take no shit, work hard, know how to stand up for themselves and I know that their self worth is such that they won't demean themselves.

I imagine that in the privacy of their own homes, what Donald Trump comes out with, must make HRC and Michelle Obama so, so angry.

But they never lose their cool. They always remain collected, calm and dignified. They wipe the floor with him, via their articulate intelligence alone (regardless of your opinion of Hillary, this is a fact).

And yet Trump is allowed to be as angry and ranty and explosive and petulant and reactive as he damn well wants.

The contrast is stark.He's a pathetic little boy.

Thanks Sgionneal !

Trump may have done us a favour in some ways by bringing his attitudes into open discussion. However I dislike the simplistic ur a misogynist if u vote for him views, as for some v genuine political reasons Clinton may end up a dire president. For some people its a case of least worst choice. Expect and hope he loses but I also hate that Clinton's going to be elected. The only reason he's still in shouting distance is there's no decent alternative.

Re ur general point, agree with some that its way, way harder to be a teenager now, boy or girl. internet and technology has chged society mass ively. Of course the good side of that is trumps comments being reported, and Clinton's too... Bad parts are obv... Pressure, porn access, etc etc ,

But really, have D's of 16 and most teenagers I know are perfectly nice and reasonable people who r managing to retain sense and decency and belief in equality etc despite what they see. And I expect / hope that'll continue.

But I understand ur concern

inneed the Michelle Obama speech was very inspiring - not a bad place to start with teaching our young people about respect and power and bodies. I played it to my y10 tutor group.

I have a boy. He's been taught since he was tiny that his body is his own and he has no right to anyone else's. That women and men are different, but equal. That this shit is important.

Redactio women have been accusing Trump of rape and sexual assault for a long time.

Ivana Trump accused him in 1993.

Jill Harth accused hi in 1997.

The unknown woman who is taking Trump to court in December to accuse him of raping her when she was 13, has been trying to get this case heard in court for a while. This is her third attempt, she tried to represent herself at first and didn't do a good job. Unusually for a rape case, incidentally, she has a witness.

YANBU

But, as awful as it all is, I think it's still better than it has been at any other point in history. Arguably our daughters have more equality, are in less danger and have better life chances than we did, than our grandparents did and so on. It's not so very long ago that women were property and had almost no independent rights.

But then, in some ways, 2016 being the good times makes the whole thing even more depressing!

YANBU

I think things are worse now than they were in the 70s/80s - back then misogyny was almost 'the norm', women were treated as second class citizens, paid less etc etc. I remember being at work and when the boss leered or asked you to bend over his desk a little lower you had to just smile and let the lads laugh over it - if you kicked up a fuss you were sacked and called all manner of names. It just happened. All the fucking time. And I'm so angry with myself and my age group for standing back and allowing it to happen. Fast forward to today and I have managed junior mixed football teams. 3 female members of my team were threatened with rape (age 12) by other teams, oh it was a big laugh until I went firstly to the league, then to the managing league. My complaints were dismissed, the clubs involved closed ranks and denied doing anything wrong. Im waffling but the point is that same misogyny is still there but I feel it's more sinister as it has to be hidden from public view now. When its up front we can challenge it. And we must, every single one of us owes it to the next generation to shout out when we see sexism, racism, homophobia. Only when we show these people that we will noit allow this to go unchallenged again will we see anything like the change in culture that is needed.

aforest I wasn't aware of half of that, but really my opinion can only go so low.
Dowager I agree that the problem must come back to men, but those of us who have daughters do still feel we have to equip them, and also ensure they are not part of the problem.

FlabulousChic Fri 14-Oct-16 19:16:37

I wish people would stop going on about stuff that happened ten years ago. I don't like him he isn't good enough to be torsident he has no finesse and is a sexist pig. But his comments do come from his past before the presidential race

Ten years ago Trump was about 59 from what I can see. In other words, more than old enough to know better.

These aren't the words of someone who has grown up in the meantime. This is who he is.

I have raised my children, boys and girl, to understand that they have the right to say no to anything they're uncomfortable with, to challenge attitudes that are sexist and that they have complete autonomy over their bodies. I have also taught them to respect people regardless of their gender, age, race and to take each person on an individual basis. I've taught them about controlling behaviour, how a relationship should be equal and that everyone has the right to a voice. They seem to be doing pretty well up to now.

My daughter is 10. This rise of misogyny and sexism frightens the living hell out of me and her DF.

I arm my girl with knowledge about appropriate behaviour. At ten, it's merely keeping herself safe (keep your privates private etc). As she gets older I will discuss with her what precisely consent means, what a healthy relationship means, what a controlling relationship is (I believe CE's partner is under some kind of spell) and what to do when there is inappropriate "banter". We need to give our girls the means to counter these behaviours.

I am fucked off with being called a "feminazi" because I want my daughter to feel safe around men and be on an equal footing with them. Is that such a bad thing?

Yadnbu.

Also what someone said re parents having crucial role, completely agree. Op says that ched Evans will become role model for some young boys. He may obv, but any of those boys with parents with any sense will surely be doing some talking about his actions etc...

Yanbu op. Jfc, some of the comments on this thread! I was relieved to have boys. They'll have pressures to deal with, but only a fraction of their female peers

I have three sons and two daughters.

I am trying to raise my sons to be lovely men who understand about respecting women. They are 17, 15 and 13 and they have had conversations with me on consent for a few years now, as well as porn and all of that stuff. They have a great role model in my husband, he is genuinely one of the most respectful men I know and he is very interested in feminism.

I can't really do more than that, I just hope it is enough. So far I have no concerns about how they are going to grow up. My older two have been talking about the injustice of Evans and feel quite sickened by it.

As for my girls, well like others said, I think it is more important that these chats are had with boys so they don't grow up into shitty men.

The american elections have been very worrying in regards to comments made about women and the scariest thing I have seen has been #repealthe19th. This is the 19th amendment they are talking about which gave women the right to vote in the US. I have female facebook friends who say they would be happy to lose the right to vote if only it stops Hillary from becoming president.
The people posting this stuff are fairly normal adult women. Some with daughters. That right there is what needs to change.
How we go about that when some women seem to hate themselves and each other that much I have no idea.
(sorry for any spelling or grammar mistakes, am a foreigner)

It's not ok to diminish trumps actions by saying what can we expect from a dickhead like him (paraphrasing)

This is part of the problem. Men are no different from women. Men are just as capable of empathis ing and nurturing and respecting others as women. Stop selling them short with bullshit excuses like we know they are dickheads anyways- that makes out like they can't really help it, don't have self control, arn't as responsible for their choices as women are. That's not acceptables and screws over both genders. If we didn't socialise men and women to think men can't really help themselves then we may not have this rape culture.

If I'm turely honest this is the reason I'm glad to only have sons, I just have to teach them that females are equal and human too, rather than teach a daughter how to cope with the attitude that raping and molesting females is acceptable to many.

You teach them to be strong, and that they have a right to say no, and that they can tell anyone, any time to get knotted.

You don't make them hug and kiss when they don't want to, you let them make choices and support them when appropriate, you teach them that everyone, including them, is a person and deserves the right to determine for themselves what happens to their body (whilst praying that they don't turn it against you when trying to get them to finish dinner or go for a shower).

That's all you can do. Raise strong girls who are confident to say no, and for my part, I will try to raise thoughtful boys who realise that no is a complete sentence.

You tell them that their bodies and minds do matter and are equal to all and second to none.

I've talked to my son, in front of DH who already knew, about one of the times I was sexually assaulted, and we watched the Trump video and talked about the connection. I also plan to watch Michelle Obama's speech with him.

The key message is that to be part of the solution is a little more than not to be part of the problem - I want him to know why it matters that he complain if he should someday hear talk like Trump's in a locker room.

Alice - I have a daughter, too - this is what has crystallised my thinking!

Ovaries AG glitter

I'm too angry and upset tonight at all this fucking shit to be articulate about it, but YANBU, and thank you to all the wonderful women on this thread who have written so eloquently about these things. My heart is heavy, but reading posts from fantastic, strong women lightens things a little.

This is a problem with manhood. Unfortunately I don't think manhood is prepared to do anything about it .

Dowager I don't disagree with you I just feel so defeated and have no idea how to equip my daughter for this shit. I absolutely shouldn't have to, but do I point out the inequalities? I feel like my friends who are in denial are so much happier.