To wonder how the fuck we explain this to our daughters?

[OvariesBeforeBrovaries]

My DD is two, so oblivious - for now - to this. But how do we explain to girls that their rights, their body and their feelings just don't matter as much to many, many people?

How do we explain that a presidential candidate uses terms like "grab her by the pussy" and boasts about non-consensual sexual encounters, and yet he's still beloved by people across the world?

How do we explain that if she is raped, her rapist's swimming career and education is more important than her dignity, mental health and right to her body?

How do you tell her that if she reports rape - or even reports theft of a handbag, but there's evidence that she has been raped - she could be dragged through the mud, vilified, illegally named, called every name under the sun, put through hell, her rapist will likely never see justice and she'll be branded a "lying slag"?

I'm sorry, I know this is probably one of many similar threads but I don't think I've ever felt quite so angry/despairing. Why are our bodies still just a fucking commodity for men to use and throw away? Why do so many people have such vileness and hatred in their hearts for other people for the crime of having a vagina? Why are people still raising their sons to see women as property, "less than", sub-human. Why do these people still exist?

What a headfuck. I hope something changes in the near future. I have no idea how you even begin explaining that to a girl just starting to realise how the world sees and treats women.

AG I completely understand

And, AG

teach her to be good,to be strong and the right values and teach her her rights and how to fight but how to know what to fight for.
teach her love,kindess.teach her how it is to be there for people,that is the BIGGEST THING she could ever never...LOVE.it will ge tyou through maybe some horrible times that might occur.but will get her feeling the brilliant times too.
teach her the good times.and never to give up.
imagine if half of musnetters did this that a huge army of good fighting beautiful inside and out girls right there growing up knowing they will be ok because they have brilliant family.they have love.

AG, I understand. You do what you need to do, and only what you are comfortable with x

I worry that in addition to the men like CE and Trump who know they're misogynists and consider women "less than", there are so many men who don't even seem to realise they're doing it.

When DP and I graduated and it came to deciding who'd be the SAHP and who'd go out and work, he assumed it would be him. I asked why, and he said "because the man provides for the family". A little digging and it turns out his own dad tried to instill that in him, but in a way that made it sound noble. I asked him to look at it from my position - I have the right to a career too, and any decisions should be our own. He'd genuinely never seen it from that POV before; his family life at home was that his dad was the provider and his mum never questioned it.

One year later, we've just done a swap - I've done a year of working FT, now I'm a SAHM because I wanted to spend more time with DD and apply for training next year, and he's working FT because he wants to fill a CV gap, and it's worked brilliantly for us. He can't believe he ever thought that his old point of view was "noble", he'd just gone along with what his parents modelled for him.

Sorry, that's a bit of an essay. What I'm getting at is that it's a depressing thought; change won't come for my generation (I'm 22), and I'm not even confident it will come for DD's. It's something that has to be modelled by parents to their children, and now that Ched Evans will inveitably become a role model for many young boys, does that mean it's another "wasted" generation?

That's probably come out jumbled up and not at all in the way I was intending it. Might need to step away from the internet while I'm feeling so frustrated with it all :(

Not at all, O

I am in admiration of your articulacy at such a tender age

I was nowhere near as enlightened as you at the same ae

*age

As others have said, Trump had a microphone on him and was in the process of being filmed - it was hardly a 'private' conversation. Plus, many, many women have come forward (before and after this became public) saying that he does what he says he does.

He is a completely vile man, and he's not even repentant. Even his so-called apology is along the lines of 'I'm sorry if you're offended but actually that's just the way we men are' (locker room talk!). He CLEARLY doesn't think he's done anything wrong. One journalist has now come out to say how he assaulted her and intimidated her and his response was essentially that she was not good looking enough for him to assault! His response is to blame Hilliary for things her husband has done - in what world is it her fault? More misogyny. Michelle Obama's speech about this is amazing - everyone should watch it. www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/oct/14/michelle-obama-full-speech-trump-video

I actually had a conversation about this earlier (in relation to general attitudes of she wanted it, she wore tight clothes, was "horny", all women want me because I'm rich etc) I was very proud of DH when he basically said "there is no problem with women. They should be able to wear whatever they like etc. The problem is with men who need to sort out their attitudes and stop seeing women as prizes, objects and anything else less than equals who should be respected as such."

If we all adopt this attitude and raise our children with this attitude we can rise up as the generation that changes this bullshit.

We all have to be part of the change. I will be playing all my uni screenwriting students this year the recent radio doc Body Count Rising to encourage them not to use women as sexual objects and victims when they write scripts. We can all do something. And we should teach the boys just the same as the girls.

Trump has been running as a candidate for some time now and these people remained silent. Within a month of the election they are suddenly making unproveable accusations.
I think that this is just dirty politics by the Democrats.

We teach our sons & daughters that they are as strong / intelligent / powerful / important as any other gender, race or sexuality and that they can do anything they want and you will support them. They can be bus drivers or doctors or presidents or hairdressers and you will support them. But some people in the world mistakenly believe that some genders / races / sexualities are better than others, and they will meet people who try to intimidate them or even hurt them. They must never be afraid to stand up for themselves, or ask for help, if that happens. If everyone learns this message, we will start to stamp out sexism and discrimination.

Absolutely this far more eloquent version.

I utterly agree that it's the conversations we need to be having with our sons that are far, far more important.

I despair that this doesn't seem to be the focus. Ever. It's always about explaining to our girls, and giving our girls the tools to deal with the crap that we know is going to come at them (and now, thanks to the internet, we actually have absolutely no fucking clue of the extent of it, which is far more terrifying).

We need to be taking to our sons about porn, about Donald Trump, about consent, about rape culture, about objectification, about human relationships, and about empathy.

We need to be revisiting this stuff with them often, as early as possible, in age appropriate ways. And we need to be modelling healthy examples for our sons, as much - if not even more so - as for our daughters. Fathers are critical in this.

Sadly our daughters have far less control over this than our sons. Our sons are the game-changers.

AG your post made me catch my breath. I hope you can reach a decision that gives you some degree of peace

You can teach her to be proud of who she is and to be strong and independent. It's only when women see through all this crap and respect themselves and not be shoehorned into what men believe women should be, that all this shite will stop.

Posted this on the Ched Evans is not guilty thread and got told i was missing the point by someone upset about the way Ched Evans was persecuted after he went to jail. Theres a lot of it about OP.

Going by a similar principle if i give out presents at Christmas and then i am mugged in January will i be told that as i have consented to give things away before , that i gave my consent for the mugger to take my property or gave it to him willingly?!

No Thats how ridiculous the kind of argument they used was.

AG we can only hope that some changes take place in future so that anyone bringing up a victim's sexual history will be severely penalised. It is so fucking disgusting to me. We cannot enjoy our sexuality, we cannot get drunk/high, we cannot safely walk the streets without judgement. Our freedoms and humanity are curtailed in so many ways.

AG I totally understand and while I'd love to think I was strong enough I'd be the same. However, it's not much but if you do change your mind you will have the support of so many of us on here xxx

I don't understand why people are minimising what Trump said.
It's not just that he said some lewd things, it's what he admitted he did.

He admitted to sexually assaulting women. Not talking about it, but doing it.

Now, I suppose it's possible that he just made it up. But does that seem likely? Is the idea that he might sexually assault women in, or out of character for Trump? Let's see.

His ex-wife, Ivana Trump accused him of violently raping her - she said he was angry about her recommending a plastic surgeon for his scalp that didn't work. He held her down, ripped her hair out of her scalp then raped her. The allegation is in her book and she cited rape in their divorce under oath. She's since said she only didn't mean rape in a literal sense however (has she been paid off?).

He sexually assaulted make up artist Jill Harth - she filed charges against him in 1997. She describes it as attemped rape.

There is a long list of allegations of assault and inappropriate behavior by Trump towards women.

He is due in court (in December I think). He is accused of repeatedly raping a 13 year old at parties at his friend's house, billionaire and convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Detail here

Trump is definitely friends with Epstein. He said to a reporter "I’ve known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it, Jeffrey enjoys his social life"

Sorry, OP, back to what you were saying. YANBU. I don't know what we tell our kids.