Drunk consent is still consent is a load of rubbish. ( Ched Even acquitted)

[EveOnline2016]

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ched-evans-rape-trial-defence-12017591

I am fuming at this, how many women now will not come forward because of this ruling.

Sorry if this has been done already.

Karlos Actually I wouldn't recommend (ok I accept that it's not my place to advise) that anyone, men or women, gets paralytic in public as (quite apart from health issues) it increases their vulnerability to all sorts of stuff... Theft, assault, having an accident etc, and yes, rape...

You can't tell women to limit their 'risky' behaviour in order to reduce their chance of rape, with out looking at what the actual risk is rather than what you perceive the risk to be. You perceive that it is more dangerous for women to go out and get drunk, and therefore they should take responsibility and not do that. But the evidence suggests that being friends with or in a relationship with any man is significantly more risky.
It's not a coincidence that the perceived risky behaviour is also one quite a lot of people historically (and now) cast a moral judgement on too.

By the way, the advice I'd give to my daughter is the same as I'd give to my son (when they're old enough)... Have a great time. Drink but do so responsibly... Stay with your mates, be aware of your situation and don't take unnecessary risks. And yes, for my daughter (and son) this is, amongst other things, to help lessen (not remove - I accept that's impossible) the risk of rape.

I would be irresponsible for me to say to them "do what the fuck you like... Drink to excess, walk down dark alleys alone, get into strangers cars, whatever... Because if anything happens to you, don't worry, it won't be your fault". Of course, I'd be right that it wouldn't be their fault. It doesn't follow that this advice to them would be wise though.

fem

I accept that my views are based on instinct and intuition, and I haven't reviewed any studies... But it would be impossible for anyone to only have views that are based on extensive empirical evidence. If you have evidence that confirms that you're more safe on your own than with friends then I'd be happy to modify my opinion.

There was a statistic on a previous page that something like 90% of assaults are committed by men known to the victim.

The stranger picking off drunk women does exist, but there are far more women being attacked by their boyfriends, husband's, partners, family members, colleagues etc.

[[http://rapecrisis.org.uk/mythsvsrealities.php ]]

I don't doubt this fem... It doesn't follow though that being out alone and paralytic is less risky than being with friends and drinking responsibly.

I may be a lot more likely to die in a household accident than a car accident, but that's not a sound argument for not putting your seat belt on!

A man that spikes a womans drink cant use drunken consent is still consent as his get out clause. He has to face the fact he is a predatory rapist.

But putting on a seatbelt is not in the same league as telling women to not go out alone, to not do things we allow men to do, to curtail their freedom.
Why do we say 'dont get drunk' but we don't tell women to avoid working in offices with men, avoid having friends who are men etc?

If you want to protect your children, as opposed to being a sanctimonious moral policeman, it's more important to teach them to respect themselves, take no shit from anyone and not worry too much about being people pleasers. Because rapists are, fundamentally, cowards and bullies.
But for some reason we're much more comfortable telling our girls to limit their freedoms, rather than to assert their right to public space confidently. Bad advice and bad morality.

Very few people go out with the intention of getting paralytic and ending up alone. They go out to have a fun time with friends and get separated, or they pop out for one quick drink after work and it leads to another and they end up having a few more than they intended. Then plans change and things happen. This second scenario is what happened to Ched Evans' victim, and it's what happened to me.

The problem with advising against drinking is that if a girl does drink then gets raped, she might feel it was her fault, maybe not even dare say what has happened to her even though it is never can possibly be her fault.
Shots etc are so strong someone could get very drunk without meaning to as well, especially if they were inexperienced, had been ill, had not eaten enough etc.

In so many cases, even when alcohol was not involved she will blame herself anyway.

When I was young my friends and I were often quite wildly drunk for fun, in circles where there were a lot of males who were a bit older (perfectly sought after and attractive) and none of them ever, ever took advantage of us to even to try to get [drunken]'consent' sex in the first place, let alone push-you-down-and-get on-with-it-sex/rape that the girl will later be made to feel responsible for. I realise we must have been truly lucky, that terrible things would have been happening to some other girls, but the point is there are decent men, who would not take advantage of someone's vulnerability, and some very nasty ones who set out to do just that.

Pragmatically, I think that some unpleasant men think that when a girl or woman is drunk or drugged, she will be more likely to want sex or will be easier to get sex with. Any fun = sex. This seems often to be true in practice and the girl would genuinely say it was consensual, even if she regretted it, or felt used later.

Rape is relatively easy in this situation. A woman might even say it was consensual when it wasn't because of blaming herself for drinking, or being fuzzy in memory. Unpleasant men like to buy girls lots of drinks for that reason and rapists are just plying the drinks/drugs to make raping even easier for themselves. Often the rapists probably do not even see it as rape but just normal sex.

The rapists see a girl is drunk they target her as vulnerable prey and conveniently manipulate the situation to separate her. They conveniently see consent in everything she does from then on, whether it is really there or not. A great proportion of rapes are alcohol related no doubt just because they are really comparatively easy to do.

A large proportion of rapes though are also with anyone with a diminished capacity to consent, guard boundaries or control the situation: the disabled, the old, the mentally ill, children, babies the down trodden, the formerly abused in childhood.

If you want to protect your children, as opposed to being a sanctimonious moral policeman

Since when was 'have a good time and drink responsibly' being sanctimonious!

....telling women to not go out alone, to not do things we allow men to do, to curtail their freedom.

My views on having fun but not taking unnecessary risks apply to men and women.

It's a sad fact that the more vulnerable you are, the more likely it is that a cowardly bully will take advantage and abuse you, whether emotionally, physically or sexually. So why be more vulnerable than you need to be? Taking precautions that have a marginal impact on your freedom seems sensible to me, though I accept that some don't see it that way. We shouldn't do this in isolation, and we must still educate our young men and encourage those abused or raped to come forward.

The trouble also is no one ever follows this advice. In my group of friends, there is not one who has not done something to put themselves at risk as it's so charmingly described. We are a fairly standard group of women I would have thought, certainly not 'wild' and in some cases including my own quite boring. Some of us have been drunk, some of us have walked home alone, some of us have have got off with men we didn't really know. I honestly don't know who these women are who never take a risk, and by the way my mother knows about none of it. So of course give these messages to your daughters if you wish but be aware they will not follow it. This tactic is not working and has a massive impact on rates of reporting. We need campaigns to tackle the issue with men and not the issue with women.

I couldn't agree more with birds ^

banana I totally agree with telling children not to get paralytic drunk so they reduce the risk of all kinds of things (accidents like falling in rivers, getting in fights, being a victim of crime).
I disagree with specifically telling girls not to get drunk in case they get "taken advantage of".

So it's wrong to advise our sons and daughters to take care and behave responsibly?

The fact most (myself included) will have times when we don't take that advice doesn't mean parents' advice is useless or isn't ever heeded. We can do this alongside communicating a strong message about consent, to both sexes. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

But 'getting taken advantage of' is one of the risks of becoming paralytic, alongside being a victim of other types of crime, having accidents, etc.??

So it's wrong to advise our sons and daughters to take care and behave responsibly?

No of course not. We all do this. It is a good idea to engage with the world with our wits about us on so many levels and for many reasons.

But as a technique for avoiding being raped, it's not going to work - for all the reasons we have been discussing here. And if you have not dissuaded your daughter from the ideas that people who are drunk/in a short skirt/enjoy sex/walk alone at night/etc are somehow complicit in any assault or rape, or they are somehow asking for it, then you are doing her a massive disservice. Not only from the victim blaming perspective, but you will be giving her some false idea that if these rules are followed she will be safe or protected. And if you've read this thread you should know that this is false.

It also doesn't mean that people who choose to engage with the world with more of a free spirit attitude are wrong.

I love how people who want to advise girls not to go out and drink think THEY are living in the 'real world'.

Well, no. In the real world, the vast majority of rapes are committed, as has been said ad nauseam, by men known to the victim in workplace and domestic situations.

So, let's have some proper anti-rape advice for women. Advice that would ACTUALLY stop us being raped.

1. Make sure you are never alone with your husband. Your children don't count since some men will rape you in front of them.

1. Don't go to work. Or, if you do, ensure you are never with a man or even a group of men. You should probably carry a panic alarm if you are getting into a lift or going into the toilets at work, as a rapist may be in there.

1. Ensure that your daughters do not have male friends and never go anywhere without an adult. Except, not a male one. Because even a male teacher or DBS checked social worker might turn out to be a rapist.

Anyone care to add some more?

Yes but in a lot of cases, like in CE, I think its opportunity. He and his friend didn't set out to do what they did. A set of circumstances led to it.

So we can never say how many rapes DIDN'T happen due to either a man or woman making a different decision.

But, johnny, lets change it around.

MEN!! stay away from women, don't get married, don't work with women - they may allege you have raped them it it will ruin your life..you know - no smoke without fire.

korma Except the chances of a man being falsely accused by a woman and having his life ruined are extremely small. The chance of a woman being raped or sexually assaulted are pretty high

But 'getting taken advantage of' is one of the risks of becoming paralytic, alongside being a victim of other types of crime, having accidents, etc.??

Yes but as has been pointed out over and over and over here (with much evidence too) you can be raped or sexually assaulted whilst sober and dressed in jeans and a tshirt. At work, at university, at home, in a club, in a lift.

Yes but in a lot of cases, like in CE, I think its opportunity. He and his friend didn't set out to do what they did. A set of circumstances led to it.

You're right, circumstances did lead to it. But why? Why did he feel it was appropriate to treat a woman the way he did?

He implicated himself of rape by willingly admitting everything to the police. That's how sure he was that his behaviour was fine!

This rhetoric that women need to take responsibility for men's actions, that a woman's right to safety is somehow less important than a man's right to stick his dick in anything that walks, needs to change precisely because it leads to circumstances like this.

Would CE have acted the way he did if he thought society would condemn him for it?

We need to stop telling our young women to take responsibilty for a crime that can only be commited by men. It is men's responsibility to reduce rape by not raping women who are too intoxicated to say no.