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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Drunk consent is still consent is a load of rubbish. ( Ched Even acquitted)

331 replies

EveOnline2016 · 14/10/2016 15:58

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ched-evans-rape-trial-defence-12017591

I am fuming at this, how many women now will not come forward because of this ruling.

Sorry if this has been done already.

OP posts:
PinkissimoAndPearls · 19/10/2016 18:14

Are you going to answer my question, Persian, or just ignore it as it's too awkward for you?

birdsdestiny · 19/10/2016 18:18

Also as many many people have said those messages have been told to women since forever. Rapes still happening. Most women still not reporting. So it's not working is it. It's useless.

PinkissimoAndPearls · 19/10/2016 18:20

"I have no idea of what circumstances you were raped in pink, but I'm guessing you wouldn't advise your daughter or another woman to willingly put themselves in the same situation."

What, I should be advising them not to leave the house? Or interact with men, ever. Doesn't really work does it.

I'm glad you have realised I bear no responsibility, hopefully it will make you realise that your advice re precautions and minimising risk, is absolutely worthless and is in fact victim blaming. If you feel like giving any more advice, can I suggest you aim it at men? Who are responsible.

And perhaps listen to what rape victims and survivors are telling you about their experiences instead of being so fucking ignorant when you have absolutely no idea what we are actually talking about. Lucky you.

FullTimeYummy · 19/10/2016 18:26

Pink: get over yourself

SooWrites · 19/10/2016 18:29

Pink: get over yourself

Hmm

You didn't really just give that reply to a woman bravely sharing her experience as a survivor of a sex crime, did you?

Because that would be beyond shitty.

PinkissimoAndPearls · 19/10/2016 18:38

Soo it just demonstrates what we are up against and why we don't report. Because we are firstly blamed, then minimised and then dismissed.

It's just shit. I'm off for a bath.

Boundaries · 19/10/2016 18:42

fulltime I can't actually believe you just said that.

FullTimeYummy · 19/10/2016 18:44

Pink has had plenty of sympathy on this thread. However being a rape victim doesn't give anybody carte blanche to be rude, dismiss the views of others out of hand and twist the words of others into whatever they feel best suits their own agenda.

I feel very sorry for her, but that doesn't mean she is right about the issues discussed here, namely consent and risk compensation.

Felascloak · 19/10/2016 18:51

If you were to call a person in CE's situation in rapist in public then you could be sued for slander and if you did it in writing you could be sued for defamation as in the eyes of the law he is not a rapist. I think he'd have to prove he was slandered/libelled and as it's civil it would be on balance of probabilities. On balance of probabilities is ched a rapist? Different proposition to beyond reasonable doubt.
That's why I would be very surprised if he sues anyone.

Felascloak · 19/10/2016 18:59

Dear me fulltime. Pink isn't twishing anyone's words.
There are some really troubling views on rape on MN and pinks aren't them.

Isitadoubleentendre · 19/10/2016 19:24

Part of the problem goes back to this idea of rapists only being ugly men in trench coats waiting in the bushes with a knife. Which then perpetuates the myth that you can keep yourself safe from them by not walking home alone, not getting drunk.

That there are always 'bad people', out there and that's just an inevitability, which shifts the responsibilty on to women to 'keep themselves safe'.

Of course whst all this ignores is that the majority of rapists aren't waiting in the bushes. They are normal blokes, people's boyfriends, husband's, friends, father's. They walk among us every day. And that there isnt a whole lot a woman can do to avoid being raped if she comes across a rapist, short of ceasing to be a woman.

There are precisely zero messages to men about how not to be a rapist because everyone is like 'well obviously that's ridiculous because don't be a rapist goes without saying'. But the fact is the overwhleming evidence is that is doesnt just 'go without saying'.

I read something on here where someone said that women can't win - if we try and take measures to 'keep ourselves safe' (anything beyond not getting too drunk or walking alone down dark alleys) we get criticised because 'not all men' and we get men holding up cards saying 'this is not what a rapist looks like'. But if we don't, then its our fault if we get raped. Unless we are teetotal virgins, which may let us off the hook in some cases.

PersianCatLady · 19/10/2016 19:54

Are you going to answer my question, Persian, or just ignore it as it's too awkward for you?
Sorry I missed it, what did you want to ask me?

PersianCatLady · 19/10/2016 20:03

Do you believe I could have prevented what happened to me by taking precautions?
I have had another search of this thread and I think this is what you are talking about.

Honestly from what you have said about what happened to you, no I don't think that you could have done anything to prevent this happening to you and I am very sorry that it did happen to you.

PersianCatLady · 19/10/2016 20:32

I think he'd have to prove he was slandered/libelled and as it's civil it would be on balance of probabilities. On balance of probabilities is ched a rapist? Different proposition to beyond reasonable doubt.
That's why I would be very surprised if he sues anyone.

That is not how libel law works, the claimant only needs to prove that the defendant made the statement and that it was defamatory.

The claimant does not have to prove that the statement was false but the defendant does have an affirmative defence that the statement is true.

So if somebody published a statement and CE then sued for libel, the libellous statement would be presumed to be false and the onus would be on the defendant to prove that the statement was true.

Lighthouseturquoise · 19/10/2016 20:33

Just another voice to add to that. My ex boyfriend raped me, we were in a long term relationship.

I'd had many drunken nights out prior to that, walked alone in the dark, wore skimpy clothes, flirted with men, never got raped.

The time I got raped was a Saturday morning, in the flat I'd spent the past year in, wearing jeans and a zipped hoody, stone cold sober with a man I knew well.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 19/10/2016 20:34

Maggie

If I had a daughter it goes without being said I would give her some very firm advice - advice my dear mother never gave me . And it would be primarily around alcohol and the risks associated. and travel security .

But I think that the primary ultimate message and education needs to bevisibly towards the men and boys - we don't need 'be careful to not get raped posters' we need

'"Don't rape people posters '

Does that make sense ?

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 19/10/2016 20:38

And I would also teach her about the red flags for abusive Behaviour as We were not taught that either !

BeMorePanda · 19/10/2016 20:56

FullTimeYummy you really are a nasty piece of work.

CE can sue me all he wants. It still doesn't mean he's not a rapist. I might not be able to prove he's a rapist but that wouldn't mean he's not one either. If he raped X, or anyone else for that matter (after all he has said what he did that night was normal wealthy footballer behaviour) he is a rapist. A jury finding a verdict of not guilty does not equal innocent.

This seems to be an extremely difficult concept for some people to grasp. You don't need to take it from me. You can take it from the judge linked to earlier.

CE's own words about the night in question mean it would be extremely difficult to defame him, on the subject. It's virtually impossible to harm his reputation as it stands.

Bananabread123 · 19/10/2016 20:58

It doesn't follow the fact that rape can happen to anyone, and that most rapes are carried out by people you know, that women should not be alert to the risks of becoming vulnerable as a result of excessive drinking to the point of unconsciousness. I don't see how ignoring this makes women any safer...

It reminds me of a work colleague who never looked when crossing when the green man was on... When asked he said 'well, it's the driver's fault if they don't stop I get hit'... Of course, he was right, it is th drivers responsibility to stop... A while back he got hit and badly injured.... Yes, it's not a perfect analogy and of course rape is a million time more harrowing, but blindly ignoring risk because someone else would be responsible for the incident is foolish in my opinion. Personally I'd rather manage risk by showing basic levels of awareness and precautions than take the moral high ground and increase my risk of suffering as a result.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 21:16

It's not your place to tell other people that they should manage risk better. It's for everyone to come to their own conclusions. Adult women, especially rape victims do not need your "advice" so kindly keep it to yourself.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 19/10/2016 21:17

Even in societies where women never go out and get drunk - where they never go anywhere alone - because they are not permitted to, rape happens all the fucking time. Because these are societies which do not believe women should enjoy the liberties men enjoy. We do not make women safer by emulating those societies and saying female freedoms must be curtailed in the name of safety. We are making women less safe, by endorsing the idea that the onus is on them to behave in certain ways, not on men to respect their autonomy.
The portion of the population most likely to be subjected to violent assault are young men. Many of these victims will be out drinking with their friends at night. I don't hear these fuckwits telling them to stay at home and stay sober to protect themselves.
I wonder why.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 21:22

I don't think certain people on this thread are capable of grasping that idea, it's a complete waste of time.

Felascloak · 19/10/2016 21:27

The claimant does not have to prove that the statement was false but the defendant does have an affirmative defence that the statement is true.

Yep. So say ched sues someone for saying he's a rapist, and their defence is he's a rapist. Then the court would need to look at that defence on a balance of probabilities basis. Given he was initially convicted then cleated because it couldn't be proven beyond reasonable doubt, I think that defence has a good chance of working.
I think the likelihood of him suing is quite low.

EveOnline2016 · 19/10/2016 21:29

I will advice both my children ds and dd not to walk home drunk on their own, because if anything was to happen from the results of drinking ( like vomiting or falling over) there is someone to help.

Women don't need to modify their behaviour, men just need to realise having sex is not a right and he can't just put his penis into a woman's vagina because he wants to.

Why don't rapes happen in public swimming pool changing areas where typicality women wear less clothes, or in a middle of a club dance floor.

OP posts:
Boundaries · 19/10/2016 21:32

I think there is an overwhelming sense from some that rapes when women are drunk are in some way different to other rapes.

That women have more control over them.

Which is bollocks, obviously.