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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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A minor celeb came on to me inappropriately should I report?

382 replies

Iggypoppie · 09/10/2016 14:40

Got a bit of a dilemma.

After watching the jammy Saville doc last week I remembered that earlier this year a current v minor TV presenter several times touched my leg at a charity dinner. It was in a busy room and I was too shocked/confused to ask him to stop! I had only just met him and was three months pregnant so wasn't flirting and I believe his behaviour was sleazy if not predatory.

This person has already been reprimanded for inappropriate behaviour at work in the past so I believe he has form.

My question is, should I tell his employer even though he wasn't attending in a work capacity? Or should I just email him and say that I am on to him?

I don't want a fuss by the way and it was possible that he was just being "friendly" Hmm but it occurred to me that Saville got away so long because of women minimising incidents like this one.

OP posts:
ChequeOff · 09/10/2016 21:48

As much as this kind of insidious sexual harassment is loathsome, I understand what you're saying fastday. Touching a leg or arm is more ambiguous than a breast or bum.

And that's perhaps why this sleaze ball chooses those body parts.

andintothefire · 09/10/2016 21:50

Of course touching somebody's leg can be sexual assault! I really despair of the attitude towards women sometimes - from women themselves very often. Being touched on the leg several times is obviously sexual and upsetting and I can tell you from personal experience that it absolutely feels like an assault when somebody does it.

If you don't believe me.. m.theargus.co.uk/news/11422299.Man__62__arrested_after_leg_stroking_sexual_assaults_on_bus_journeys/

Whether the police would do anything in the circumstances described by the OP is of course another question. But I hope that when your daughters report to you that a man they barely knew stroked their leg without there being any intimation that she consented, you do not dismiss their experience because it is "not sexual assault".

Excited101 · 09/10/2016 22:09

You've had a startling amount of nasty, shocking, dismissive and unkind replies on here op. I'm not weighing into the bunfight, but Flowers to you, you've done nothing wrong.

lifeaintblackandwhite · 09/10/2016 22:26

what Excited101 said. you did nothing wrong. it seems to happen to so many women. and as for the other poster who said her dad told her what she went through wasn't assault, that is actually wrong and i'm sorry that happened to you too.

lifeaintblackandwhite · 09/10/2016 22:27

This reply has been deleted

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instantly · 09/10/2016 22:38

Flowers? Ffs

Lweji · 09/10/2016 22:41

Do not assume that 'casual groping' is as far away from rape as you think.

This. Very much.

Do some people really think that rapists drive in vans and stay away from women until they kidnap and rape them?

I am more than happy for someone to explain to me how it is sexual harassment. I might be thinking about this too much like a lawyer.

I hope you are not one, and are not involved in defending such men.

Mindfields · 09/10/2016 22:47

I think what fastdaytears was saying was that Sexual Harassment is a work-specific crime rather than one that happens on an unrelated night out.

If the incident occurred at a works Christmas party in the local restaurant then it would be considered sexual harassment. If it happened (as in the OP) at a charity event where it wasn't two employees at a work-organised event then it would not be legally seen as sexual harassment.

I have no legal training though so could be way out on this!

www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/sexual-harassment-your-rights.html

Excited101 · 09/10/2016 22:51

What's your problem instantly ? This is meant to be a website primarily aimed at women to provide support, the majority of replies on this thread about something quite uncomfortable for the op are of scorn, judgement, victim blaming and rudeness. It's nasty and unecessary.

lifeaintblackandwhite · 09/10/2016 22:53

I don't know anything about the laws on this subject but it does seem from reading the papers that historical cases are hard to prove. However, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

instantly · 09/10/2016 22:57

Harassment also has to be sustained i.e. Several instances.

fastday is perfectly correct. But don't let legal fact stop you...

lifeaintblackandwhite · 09/10/2016 23:05

Ah, I see. So as a one off it wouldn't legally stick, Instantly? I see. So it wouldn't be sexual assault in the legal sense then?

Rachcakes · 09/10/2016 23:07

Lots of people don't react in the moment. When people cross boundaries it's confusing, and you doubt yourself.
I don't think I'd report but I don't think there's any reason to be so harsh to OP.
OP, what would you hope to achieve by reporting him? Lose his job, go through court, stop it happening to others?
While it sounds sleazy, I'm not sure.

Lweji · 09/10/2016 23:15

I think what fastdaytears was saying was that Sexual Harassment is a work-specific crime rather than one that happens on an unrelated night out.

Fair enough.

Although this www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/sexual-harassment-your-rights.html talks about sexual harassment at and outside of work.

"Sexual harassment is any type of unwanted contact of a sexual nature. Physical sexual harassment can mean unwanted touching, hugging and cases of rape."

It doesn't say how often it should occur before it's considered harassment, so I expect once is enough.

Also
"Sexual harassment outside of the workplace should be reported directly to the police."

Mindfields · 09/10/2016 23:23

Lweji

Yes it does cover sexual harassment outside of work but I think that's only if it's work-related (co-worker, person in authority etc.).

So the example of the Christmas party or if you work from home and someone from the company harasses you in your own home (as that is technically your place of work).

Agreed that sexual harassment can be a one-off incident, not sustained. the laws on Harassment per se might be different though?

Mindfields · 09/10/2016 23:29

"Protection from Harassment Act 1997

When is something harassment under the Act?

Generally speaking harassment is behaviour which causes you distress or alarm.

The Act also says you must have experienced at least two incidents by the same person or group of people for it to be harassment"

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/discrimination/taking-action-about-discrimination/taking-action-about-harassment/

Lweji · 09/10/2016 23:33

Well, in the context of this thread, it's semantics.

Was there an offense committed?
Is it sexual harassment or assault?

And assault would fall under what has been posted before:
Sexual assault
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)the touching is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the touching, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

A friendly slap on the thigh, in the middle of a joke/whatever? Probably ok.
Repeatedly stroking/touching/grabbing a thigh under the table? It seems of a sexual nature to me, and I'm sure to the man there too. How many men do it without that intention? It's intrusive, and not just in a too close kind of way.

But to the person who said that it's not sexual harassment if it's a social event, yes it can certainly be. Perhaps not in this case, but co-workers at social events fall under that category.

Lweji · 09/10/2016 23:36

The question arises, then.
In the context of harassment, would touching more than once be considered as more than one event or just one?

Mindfields · 09/10/2016 23:56

Well, in the context of this thread, it's semantics

100% agree with that.

The OP felt harassed by someone in what she felt was a sexual manner so it's not unreasonable to describe it as sexual harassment.

I think anything sexual would come under sexual assault and once is (more than) enough to prosecute. Harassment (in the legal sense) appears to be of a non-sexual nature and needs to happen at least twice.

marie200 · 10/10/2016 00:20

I haven't read the whole thread so apologise if this has already been said.
I would advise anyone who says just forget it, or it wasn't that bad etc. To have a look on twitter at the tweets under the hashtag #notokay. It's a real eye opener to the sexual abuse/harassment women face everyday. There are millions of stories and I find it worrying that ppl are saying this is ok or normal. I worry as to what ppl are teaching their sons and daughters!
OP I'm sorry this happened to you. It's really not ok. I think if you need to speak to someone about him, be it your boss/police/relative then do it.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 10/10/2016 00:21

An awful lot of this thread is like a microcosmic explanation of "how Savile got away with it" - because he did exactly this - acted inappropriately in plain sight of masses of people. And TV cameras. Being a minor celeb/children's tv presenter/charity dude, just makes it more likely that people will be so shocked, they will be unlikely to shout out about it. Jimmy Savile did plenty of the 'minor' stuff - and plenty of the major stuff too. People really shouldn't be belittling the OP for speaking about this.

lifeaintblackandwhite · 10/10/2016 00:35

There are helplines and things out there for advice. Women's Aid, Rape Crisis etc. I think those helplines deal with all ends of the spectrum of creepy behaviour. Yes, they specialise in the serious stuff but that doesn't mean they won't help with the rest. Help is there to be had, and at the end of the day if it helps the OP that is what counts. It may help and if it doesn't help, it certainly won't harm.

Mildred007 · 10/10/2016 01:16

Wow!!!Shock

Anyway....OP I can totally understand where you're coming from....you think this minor celebrity maybe using his "stardom" to allow him to be inappropriate to women. That he may or may not be doing it/done it to others and could have been/be worse. That if you don't speak out now and you find out later something terrible has happened and that reporting it to someone may have prevented it?? I agree that someone touching your leg is pretty annoying and minor but I also understand why you posted - because so many people turned a blind eye or thought inappropriate behaviour wasn't important at the time & later found out it was. Having said all that I truly don't know what I would do in your position....Confused sorry not much good to you but I just wanted to let you know I understand why you posted.

pregnantat50 · 10/10/2016 09:52

touching someones leg can definitely be considered sexual assault.

My dad told me about a time he was travelling on a train and this man who was sitting next to him placed his hand on my dads leg, my dad said some harsh words and moved his hand...but it definitely felt like a form of assault to my dad

LittleLionMansMummy · 10/10/2016 10:28

Touching someone's leg surreptitiously under a table implies that he knew what he was doing was wrong and had sexual connotations. But even if it wasn't, it was unwanted attention that some men feel is their God given right to enact. I think a lot of comments on here stem from the 'it was acceptable in the 70s' mentality. Well, it's fucking not ok now, nor should it ever have been.

It's all very well saying to a woman 'well if you didn't like it why didn't you say something?' But countless victims of rape and sexual assault report that they "froze" and blamed themselves. What an abhorrent world we live in where silence is deemed to be consent, even by other women!

I was at a pub on Saturday, completely sober, enjoying a night out with my sisters. One of the men repeatedly kept coming back to our table. He was friendly enough and my sisters were chatting to him, there was nothing overtly sexual in his behaviour. I was a bit more reserved, because I'm naturally more cautious anyway, but also because I'm heavily pregnant and was feeling a bit self conscious. I absolutely gave him no indication that I was in the least but interested in him, or invited physical contact, yet he still sidled up to me and put his arm around me. I didn't tell him to get off, but I'm pretty certain I must have visibly shrunk away from him - he took the hint thankfully. I'm normally quite assertive in many aspects of my life, but not on this occasion - I didn't want to cause a scene and was worried that he might react aggressively because he'd been drinking. I was actually a little afraid, partly because I'm particularly sensitive to being heavily pregnant and feel vulnerable (I was sat down and he hadn't noticed). It wasn't an overtly sexual pass, he may well have been just being friendly, but i felt uncomfortable and didn't want it. I was so angry that the assumption is that silence gives someone the right to invade my personal space like that. I didn't know him from Adam and had given no signs that I was enjoying his conversation or that we'd become 'friends'.

Seriously, when did people become so oblivious to body language that they can't tell the difference between an invitation and unwanted contact, whether sexual or not?

Op, in all likelihood I wouldn't report it to the police. But I probably would report it to his employer, especially as he has 'form' for it. He may never have jumped across the line with both feet to your knowledge, but his behaviour indicates that he certainly has a staggering disregard for personal space at the very least.