To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

Ok then, so someone says that they are concerned about immigration and gives you a load of reasons, which aren't actually valid why they are. What do you to allay their fears

It seems to me, you do anything and will do anything to try and prove that no fears, or impact on life is true. So - its pretty pointless really.
If someone said " My local hospital had to close its doors, IT SAID due to unprecedented demand from among other things IMMIGRATION" which was backed up by hospital staff, local reports in papers, local immigration figures ( as far as they can tell because no one was counting of course) YOU would then find some stats somewhere to say they are wrong.

Small I would love to know where and how you live - to think that millions of people joining any society in less than a decade is not going to have any impact whatsoever on any jobs, or services and then only as you keep insisting - great impacts.

But no local hospital has closed it doors because of immigration, in fact all the information points to the fact that immigration actually reduces waiting times for treatment.

The impact of immigration is far lower than that which is blamed on it.

Its OK to have concerns but it isn't ok to say that we need to direct national policy based on concerns which are mostly unfounded.

So no community with high immigration has had an impact on schools, on the local services, on employment, on wages, on accommodation and rents costs

So all these people are basically lying

Mmmm

Northern jobs are poorly paid.
They never used to be. Unskilled immigration kept wages down and hours short.

Skilled manual jobs were well paid. Those jobs no longer exist, or wages have been driven down by foreign competition. Take away the EU citizens/migrants and there will still be badly paid jobs - or no jobs if the have moved abroad.

With investment in training, there might be different jobs. There could be less concentration of jobs in the South East.

However, there is no going back to how it was before.

I live in London.

"to think that millions of people joining any society in less than a decade is not going to have any impact whatsoever on any jobs, or services and then only as you keep insisting - great impacts."

The fact is that repeatedly the data shows that immigration has not negatively effected jobs or service provision since the early 2000s. Certainly not had the effects prescribed to it.

Also the millions of people, two million more EU migrants have come to the UK in the last 12 years. Increasing the population, a population increase of about 3 %, or 0.25 per year. Its hardly a sweeping influx is it?

But no local hospital has closed it doors because of immigration, in fact all the information points to the fact that immigration actually reduces waiting times for treatment

I am sorry small but you are wrong, hospital maternity wards have been closing their doors due to among other things - immigration. They have been bleeding money in preparing translators fees and adapting in other ways to the influx.

"So no community with high immigration has had an impact on schools, on the local services, on employment, on wages, on accommodation and rents costs"

It comes down to the perception thing again doesn't it. In Sunderland and Hartlepool they blame these things on immigration and it has very low levels of immigration.

So they're not lying, and there may be some effects, but they are over estimating the effect.

The fact is that repeatedly the data shows that immigration has not negatively effected jobs or service provision since the early 2000s. Certainly not had the effects prescribed to it

The numbers of people we do know to be here is - a figure which gets changed ( up) on a regular basis. And that figure is the highest ever - we have had a flood of people coming here, thats just no in dispute anymore, we also know - not only did the labour gov not count people in, it willfully ignored any out cry at the time or attempts to do so

So your basing your data on sand. There is little data on this - hence why we are playing catch up everywhere.

The head count in many councils in 2008 for instance went down and yet an increase by hundreds of thousands of migrants were newly living there. Funding was cut - and yet - children needed foster care, counseling, translators in school, and so on.

we all know there was no head counting...we all see the figures change all the time, why this insistence on what the data shows> Its bizarre.

Although who knows, maybe your from the L party and you were part of the team to keep the public in the dark

In Sunderland and Hartlepool they blame these things on immigration and it has very low levels of immigration.

^^ no one knows this. because no one can count !!

The most common reason for maternity wards closing is lack of staff and beds, not pressure because of immigration. I also think you'll find the very expesive top down reorganisation of the NHS as well as real terms spending cuts have been far more detrimental than spending money on translators.

Very easy to find that figure, 64 million in 3 years, so 0.018% of the NHS yearly budget.

Small is in her London bubble but apparently knows what best for people in their communities across the whole of the Country.

I am awaiting the publication of Dame Louise Casey's report (which the Government are trying to gag). I have no idea what will be in it and it may confirm Small's view and data but, if it doesn't it will be because the woman is uneducated, doesn't have a degree or lives in the wrong part of the Country.

Funding was cut - and yet - children needed foster care, counseling, translators in school, and so on.

Funding was cut because of austerity. Many, many necessary services were cut in areas with no immigration at all.

we have had a flood of people coming here, thats just no in dispute anymore.

Actually it is. All that we know is that neither counting people on cross channel ferries or counting NI applications gives an accurate idea of immigration.

I live in London too

London can take large numbers of immigrants but of course the impact is felt on areas with lower rents not the nicer areas

Smaller towns and cities the impact is felt more there isn't the choices in earning, less services etc

And it is often said it the fault of bad planning but how can you possibly plan anything when you have no idea of numbers

It might be difficult to assess numbers where immigration is high, but there are certainly parts of the country where you can accurately say there are pretty much no immigrants.

Smaller towns and cities the impact is felt more there isn't the choices in earning, less services etc

Having grown up in small market towns, I can tell you that they can be extremely narrow in outlook. A foreigner is someone who comes from more than 20 miles away. Said Foreigner needs to live there at least 30 years before they are accepted. Apart from Lincolnshire and I think Kent, which have had a lot of immigrants, most parts that say immigration is an issue have few dealings with them, unless they are the 'incomers' from a town 30 miles away.

I don't doubt that happens

But the impact is still very different to a city with millions of people and many different industries

The impact is different, but not so much so.

Smaller towns and cities will tend to have smaller levels of immigration, areas of economic depression are likely to have less immigration.

In fact this map:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11698156/Mapped-How-high-is-immigration-in-your-area.html

Shows the areas with high levels of immigration, there are very, very few small towns with as high a proportion of immigration.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11698156/Mapped-How-high-is-immigration-in-your-area.html

Certainly not enough areas to make people's direct experiences of immigration a driving force of the referendum.

I would like to answer the original question and say that I voted remain and am still unhappy about the result. I find the falling pound very worrying, the plans to ask companies to state how many 'foreigners' they employed seemed very nasty and I'm glad the govt. has changed its mind, and the increase in attacks on people for speaking a different language, for example, is more than disturbing. And the leaving process hasn't even started yet. The leave campaign made the case to leave for 41 years after the previous referendum, I can't see why the remain campaign should not continue to make the case for remaining after the second referendum. The last time I visited my local hospital in south east England, I was treated by wonderful staff who were all from overseas. I could not have got better care. I understand many people are unhappy about immigration, I'm not one of them.

7 hours ago, wonderpup said:
It's funny how at the top it's all about supply and demand and the need to pay enough money to attract people to the job- but when it comes to the low end of the jobs market all this insight into how capitalsim works suddenly goes out the window and people are baffled as to how to go about recruiting people in a free market.

It's really very simple- keep increasing the wage on offer untill you are paying enough to attract people to do the job. In this respect a fruit picker is no different to a CEO- both require the right degree of incentives.

Where did this odd sense of entitlement among those employing unskilled workers come from? This idea that they somehow have a right to cheap labour?

Ah but!- I hear some cry- if we paid a decent wage then prices would have to rise. Well, perhaps they should rise- maybe that's the way things are supposed to work- you pay a living wage to the people you employ and the price of this is reflected in the retail cost. This addiction to cheap labour from the EU is like all addictions a short term high but a long term negative in that it creates a dependancy that can only be sustained by further supplies of cheap labour- resulting in entire industries that can only survive by exploiting people.

In what economic universe is it possible to create general prosperity by driving down wages?

I was a remained but that is history now. We are where we are. It makes no sense at all in my view to still be despondent. We need a decent agreement on exit terms and that is surely the only thing that matters now. Having said that I will vote Lib Dem in 2020 if they say they will re-apply for membership.

Yes Mrsnell, we need a decent Brexit agreement.

Which is why so many are terribly worried that hard Brexit is going to be very damaging for the British economy.

It's inly business leaders that think that though and hell, we don't like experts disagreeing with hard Brexit, do we?

We hate any discussion and debate that could appear to be disagreeing with us Leavers in this democracy, don't we?

Because Leave won and that means end of the conversation, doesn't it? Farrige would love that.

Bluesrunthegame - pity there is no Like button. You express my feelings exactly.

I voted leave. I'm a big believer that we are citizens of our country and the world. I think some one from Ethiopia should have as much right to come in to our country as someone from say Germany, I find accusations of being racist and insular from remainers somewhere between laughably ironic and disturbing. However one of my main reasons for voting out was the inevitable March towards a United States of Europe disturbing. Our legal system and constitution is not compatible with the highly codified civil law system which is the born in much of main land Europe. How long for instance before the EU insisted we got rid of trusts to protect freedom of establishment etc? The EU was growing evermore rapidly both in geography and remit to encompass economies and cultures so different no one was going to win by the one size fits all. We needed to make this move now (albeit there will be inevitably a period of economic pain yet to be determined in level or length) to ensure our agility to be a world player. Sometimes the short term pain is well worth the long term gain. Whatever the outcome people were going to be annoyed. I would have been seething if we had stayed but we have to make the best of what we have. The result is not going to be reversed

" I think some one from Ethiopia should have as much right to come in to our country as someone from say Germany, I find accusations of being racist and insular from remainers somewhere between laughably ironic and disturbing."
That sounds commendable but doesn't make a lot of sense. Freedom of movement was part and parcel of being in a union that protected and furthered our economic potential. It makes good political and economic sense to have such a union with your neighbouring countries especially against the historical background of European wars over the last 1000 years and more. At this moment in time we have more immigrants coming from non-EU countries anyway so it has never been a case of either or. I reiterate freedom of movement within the EU is part of a very beneficial package, we are now about to loose this package. Not only that, non-Brits are being vilified and once they are done with the 'Poles' they will move onto British Muslims and non-white Brits. A person from Uganda will feel as unwelcome as a person from Belgium.