To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

Perception is everything, and if the media bleats on about the ills of the country being down to immigration for more than a decade it will become accepted that its true.

Oh BTW, jobs in the north used to be well paid, but you might have noticed that the industries that existed years ago are long gone.

What a load of rubbish, so we should listen to people just because something is important to them?

No, in politics it's probably best not to listen to people about what's important to them (depending what kind of society you want to live in of course).

And Small, this £3 a week figure. Have you ever lived on the breadline and had to count every penny? It's easy to dismiss to as a small effect when you don't have any money worries. Presumably this effect is the average, so for some it will be a larger loss in wages (for some smaller, obviously) but the point I am making is that I don't think it is for well off people to dismiss the effect as insignificant when we are talking about people on very low wages.

Yes I have lived on the breadline, and I know that small amounts can matter. But lets be honest here, low wages would still be low wages with £3 a week more.

Even then the percentage point change in immigrants working in low paid jobs peaked in 2004-2006 at about 7 percentage points, and in fact in other years lowered by significant amounts. So the effect of immigration is negligible.

I perhaps phrased that point about listening to people wrongly, you do need to listen to people's points but the big important thing is that they can still be incorrect.

Look at the points that people put up when they talk about immigration, taking jobs, NHS, school places etc etc.

In almost ALL causes of the issues regarding these points are not to do with immigration. Its fine to listen to people's fears, but we don't need to direct national policy on them.

Northern jobs are poorly paid.
They never used to be.

In my experience they were usually worse paid. - I am talking about the late 60s and 70s. Anyone with a job in the Civil Service sat tight, even in a humble job like Admin Assistant, a basic entry level job, because outside London, the pay scales were national, so your money went a long long way. Other comparable jobs were not usually nearly so well paid.

Listening to the radio in the run up to the referendum many manual workers called I am quite sure they were not quibbling about a £3 difference in their wages

And what seems to get lost is these people were not blaming immigration they were blaming a system that allowed their wages to be driven down

But it's easier to label them racist fits a narrative that lots of English are lazy and will find any excuse to stay on JSA

So people on average earned more in the north

That's news to me

So you think immigration being a big issue in an area where there is actually very low levels of immigration isn't a strange thing? Because immigrants aren't in the North East taking people's jobs or social housing, just like they aren't anywhere else

I simply do not know why you keep insisting on this, Its utterly bonkers.
Several million migrants are going to be granted a leave to stay here. Where do you think these people are living? Its a small Island! You seem think they are living on the Isle of Wight in isolation, and therefore no one has a right to complain about high levels of immigration in their area.

It seems to be an area you have a blind spot in? You reject any claims to anyone having issues with immigration.

An interesting LSE study found that the word financial crisis and the recovery from it had been the main factor that had caused low pay.

A national study

A study in particular areas looking at all or different professions

Justgive:

In the North East, which is what we were discussing, 5% of the entire population are immigrants. Its a very small amount.

I do object to people's concerns regarding immigration when they list, jobs wages, the NHS etc etc, because immigration is not the reason for the issues with these points.

Oh btw, EU immigration makes up about 4.5% of the population. Its not a really large amount.

Immigration has put the wages down.

Low skilled immigration is basically doing the jobs that British low skilled workers do not want to do. Picking fruits and vegs, caring work etc...

And it's not that they are 'lazy'. You can find the same thing happening in a lot of other countries. It's the fact that it feels that that sort of job is very hard work for a very poor pay (which they are but then they aren't recognised as difficult AND we wouldn't be happy, as consumers, to be paying more for your fruits/care at home etc etc) so said workers aren't willing to do the job when they can do other things that are either better paid or physically easier.

Besides, I'm not sure that, even if every single low skilled person on JSA was doing 'those' jobs, there would be enough people to do them anyway!

It was a national study Enthusiasm.

Basically since 2008 people have accepted lower pay rises, or pay freezes.

And non EU immigration is bigger too but non EU migrants don't seem to be an issue.

Nope, Polish people are an issue. But Irish people aren't. Even though according to the latest evaluation, there are as many polish people in the UK than Irish people....
But people from Ireland are immigrants too. No?

"Immigration has put the wages down."

Very marginally for the bottom 10% of workers, not really had a massive effect.

small YY and usually because there was an economic downturn, the arrival of zero hours contract and the like and people were scared to loose whatever they had.
On the other side, the government did nothing to stop excesses regarding the use of zero hours contract and part time job that are asking people to be available 24/7, basically trapping a sizeable group in the population oin poverty.
In that context, no surprise that people have been happy to accept lower pay rise and/or pay freeze....

Accepted

They have had no choice

And in the building trade they don't often have unions behind them

This has been one of the biggest problems many people haven't been listened to, stats and reports (that can always be manipulated and reasearced where they got the information from) have been thrown at them. I can remember seeing people from Boston on question time being dismissed because a report had said they were wrong it's happened again and again

Mass immigration has had an impact and not always positive and other communities that feel they have been left behind or ignored while the country has moved on of course are going to identify with them on a level they can't with MP's that just ignore them anyway

There are very few places like Boston though, even then in Boston there were many positives to immigration. For example the hospital which was due to see ward closures has had them kept open because of the increased demand.

Many of the changes that have happened in Boston would likely have occured anyway as a results of changes in the way local industries work. There have been some negatives, but most of the complaints come down to fear of change.

Why are we not listening to people's fears. Over and over again people are dismissed

Boston wasn't alone but probably the most extreme example

Yes. I also worry about people like Anders Brevik and the gun men and bombers in the the world who aren't Muslim too.

Creating terror isn't just about mad Islam claimers. It's about mad people full stop.

Several million migrants are going to be granted a leave to stay here. Sorry to be nit picky but they are not migrants they are EU citizens executing their EU rights. Unless you want to call a person moving from Lancaster to London a migrant.

Ok then, so someone says that they are concerned about immigration and gives you a load of reasons, which aren't actually valid why they are. What do you to allay their fears.

Or what if they would be concerned about any level of immigration and just want it stopped.

Or what if the only way to deal with any of the issues they raise is to reverse the process entirely, or that they are unwilling to see any of the benefits?

Essentially "listening to fears" is a nothing statement. What can we do about allaying their fears is the real issue, and in many cases this would be impossible to do without reversing immigration.

It isn't a nothing statement

If we can learn anything from the referendum it is that our politicians were not in touch with the electorate if they were they would have been aware that many were ready to vote for change

It makes no sense that we are all so shocked when UKIP are the third party of this country now

What should have been happening is listening to people (that is part of the job) and working on changes so issues that have arisen wouldn't in other societies not throwing some more reports at them to prove they are wrong

A year ago if you had asked people in this country do you think immigration needs to be controlled I am sure the vast majority would say yes they wouldn't have throught about the the issues of the EU and free movement. Now apparently it doesn't need to be controlled

Of governments hadn't under estimated number year after year people might have a bit more confidence around the issue (or course some never would)

In other communities (not societies , that makes no sense)

ARGH!

If you ask the majority of people why they want immigration controlled they'll spout the reasons above, schools, the NHS, unemployment etc which are not really detrimentally effected by immigration. What action are you going to tell them your going to take? They wouldn't be happy unless immigration stops altogether.

People essentially don't want change, they want a return to a land of lost content that never existed.